Union Shops [split]

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[slplit] Human Obsolescence

Postby Kellemora » 04 Aug 2014, 12:08

Hi Icey

I hate to say this, but brainwashing has changed the world.
You are RIGHT, no one has a Work Ethic anymore.

The very type of teaching they call education, does not teach Work Ethic, it teaches laziness and how to OBEY, and that's about it.

A very high percentage of today's people, whether they have a job or not, are actually NOT EDUCATED at life skills.
What is the GOAL of nearly every college graduate? TO LAND A JOB, working for a BOSS, someone they MUST OBEY, and who has a THUMB holding them down.

Regardless of whether they make a low salary or a high salary, they are still the PEONS of the world, the SLAVES to Industry, busy OBEYING their MASTERS. Most of them only know a couple of things well enough to hold down a job, and couldn't diversify if their life depended on it, so when times change, they are lost, and often end up homeless.

Only 150 years ago, most of the nation was self-sufficient. Nearly everyone knew how to do almost everything, and they had enough smarts to learn how to do those things they had not learned yet. They HAD TO to survive. Jobs were more scarce than they are today, for those who just couldn't cut it. They could move to the nearest town and probably land a job somewhere, because most folks back then did not want to work for someone else. It was like being at the bottom of the barrel.

My how things have changed eh!
Today, the mindset is not to be the boss, not to take on responsibilities, but to idle away at a menial task working for someone else. The GOAL for most of today's populace is FIND A JOB, be somebody's SLAVE.
And toward this LOWLY GOAL, they spend half of their life's earning to get a piece of paper to get that JOB.
JOB = Just Over Broke. So when the JOB goes south, and they have no other skills, they find themselves in trouble and BLAME everyone except themselves.

Along with technology comes advanced skills most of us cannot achieve, because it takes years to master an individual skill for such things. In order to do so, most will have to set aside learning the things they should be learning in conjunction with it. But they don't, they skip it instead, to devote more time to learning how to OBEY and do their JOB.

I really do think as time goes on, we are going to find more folks specializing in their skills, and putting them to use for their own merits, and not for someone a rung or two above them. Although in many cases, they are still under the thumb of some larger company, only thinking they are independent to the brainwashing they've received.
MLMs are good or brainwashing folks into thinking they are Independent and control their own fate.
99% of MLM distributors are ONLY SALESMEN for a larger company, who provide the products, make the rules and call all the shots. No matter what they try to get you to believe, how is that being Independent? You don't control the Product, you don't control the Plan, you don't control the Rules, nor do those above you in the sales organization, nor those below you in your group. You all go by the same rules established by the company to sell their products. If they up and close, they were your ONLY supplier of goods, and source of your commissions. OOPS, now you're not so independent are you. A common phrase: "You are in business for yourself, but NOT by yourself." ARE YOU? If you are in business for yourself, YOU call the shots, not those above you! You select which vendors you buy from, etc. etc. etc.

It doesn't matter how large or small your business is, whether you are barely scraping by, or making a killing. If you report to anyone, you only have a JOB working for someone else. You are NOT the BOSS or Owner of your own business.
Everyone should be the Boss of their Own Business, it can be small, working on shoestring, while you work for someone else at a JOB. But your GOAL should not be to become and REMAIN a SLAVE to someone else, especially a Union who will keep you beat down to size and greatly limit your potential.

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Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Ice.Maiden » 04 Aug 2014, 16:25

Two separate issues here Gary. Talking of unions first, the ones in the UK've helped many a worker, especially when sorting out decent pay-offs, wage increases and disputes. The private bosses hate them, for obvious reasons, and yes, mistakes've been made, but they were there as an institution to fight for the working man. They did, and still do.

In our schools, students take Business Studies as part of the curriculum. During their time of learning, they go round their chosen places of work to see how things're made, sold and everything in between. This's apart from work experience which's expected later. The idea, is that these kids'll get a grasp of how things're produced, with a view to starting up their own businesses.

However, out of the thousands who study the subject, only a relative few go onto actually doing so. From the ones who try, probably half fail, and just getting to that stage's fraught with problems.

When a child leaves school, if they don't go onto college or university, they have to sign on to obtain Jobseeker's Allowance. This means being sent on useless courses or for interviews miles away, just to try and collar a job. If the kids refuse, their Allowance's suspended.

It's rare that you can go knocking on doors seeking employment any more. Most of the big companies get their staff from agencies, unless they're seeking a person with particular skills and experience - which these kids haven't got.

Starting a business can be very difficult, as low-priced premises are very hard to find. A home business can't be run from a house owned by the Council or a Housing Association, so lots of people who'd LIKE to start up on their own aren't able to.

Then comes the aspect of financing your business. Banks sometimes lend if the business plan sounds viable, but that can soon be swallowed up with rent charges, electricity, water, paying any staff and so on, so a bit of work has to be done first, to see if your business's going to work.

Some manage it, others take over businesses which their parents or grandparents started, but as a whole, the majority don't have that step onto the ladder, and starting from scratch can be not only daunting but nigh impossible.

Therefore, the masses prefer to work for someone else, but finding employment when you have no skills's very difficult and disheartening, so some kids go back to college to try and learn what's needed. The rest flounder. These days, if you work in a shop or manage to get a job in a factory, you're considered "OK" - because you have SOME sort of job.

The UK's trying to lead the world market in computer-based work. Centres've been set up for employees to work on programmes to beat cyber crime, but of course, only graduates in technical subjects can hope to apply, and even there, many're leaving universities with the possible knowledge, but there aren't the vacancies to accommodate them all. We know someone who was in that very position. To enable him to buy a house, he took on a job at a waste refuse place as a driver. He deals with toxic waste, and his salary's very good now. The main thing is, that he loves the work and gave up his original plans years ago. In a way, his intelligence's been wasted, but he's happy with his lot, so perhaps he did the best thing.

I agree with you that people're idle though. They don't seem to have the urge to work hard any more. Plenty DO, but all they see's what goes into their bank accounts every month, and basically, it's anything for an easy life.

I was brought up differently. Our parents instilled a work ethic into all of us, and though they were comfortably off, nothing was ever just handed on a plate. You wanted something - you worked for it, in whatever capacity - and this's what my own children've been taught. As it happens, I've probably done better than any of my siblings, but that doesn't mean that my kids can sit back and reap the benefits of what's gone before them. They've been taught to appreciate their lifestyle and they know that there's a lot of hard work ahead of them. There's never been a question of sitting back and not having plans in life.
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Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Kellemora » 05 Aug 2014, 09:14

Hi Icey

I'll grant you, times have changed considerably enough that it is exceedingly harder to get started in business.
Way to many laws have been enacted to prevent start-up companies from ever standing a chance to roll.
Governments have always sided with Big Business, and keeping all the Peons under Control...

That being said, nearly every Big Business was started on a tabletop, in a garage or basement, grew and expanded as they could afford to do so.

When companies like Apple or Micro$oft started, there were NO courses in college to help them.
Today, they have over 500 different courses associated with computing, some of which have already become obsolete.

Trying to start a business in which you already have major competition is next to impossible. But look at all the new businesses we have today that when they first started, there was no competition, until they created a demand in the marketplace.

I had one of the very first Roomba robotic vacuums. Due to the nature of the product, it did cost a lot to develop and make marketable. Before that I had an Apple One Motherboard, when Apple first started out, and look how they've grown from a table in a garage.

There was a time in ancient history when workers needed a co-op to improve working conditions. Their needs were met by the early Unions. There is power in numbers, and this set the ball to rolling to get better and safer working conditions, with fair wages and increases over time.
However, how Unions operate and what they do for the workers has diminished to the point they no longer help but hinder workers, and virtually put a stop to production in all union controlled industries.

The worst thing they do today, and have for decades now, is prevent their workers from advancing their skills.
I know that for a FACT, because I was a worker in the Trades. Unions are like cliques, and although they honor each others pickets, they do not and will not allow their members to become proficient in all trades.

I'll use myself as an example: I started out as a Cub for James O. Laughlin plumbing company. Worked my way up the ladder as an Apprentice, and until I completed my Journeyman level, when I could be licensed. You cannot advance to Master without becoming a full-union member of the Plumbers Union.
I also started as a Cub for Steffen Electric a year or so later. Worked my way up the ladder as an Apprentice, and worked concurrent at both companies until I completed my Journeyman level, when I could be licensed. The same holds true with the Electricians Union, I could not advance to Master without becoming a full-union member.
I was also working toward getting my HVAC, Structural, and General Contractors licenses as I neared completion of my Journeyman levels.

This is on major area where the Unions TURN AGAINST all Workers, and completely BLOCK their chance of advancement in the Trades.
Their rules dictate one cannot belong to any other Union other than their OWN.
They FORCE their Members to choose them and them alone, which LIMIT you to ONLY their trade.
You cannot become a Master Electrician, if you are working toward Master Plumbing.
THEY DO NOT ALLOW IT! Which is holding their members from ever advancing in the trades.

Since I could not advance, as I earned my Journeyman certificate and obtained my licenses, I left them and moved on toward my goals.

During my years as a General Contractor, although I tried to hire unionized workers to work in homes I was building. They themselves made it almost impossible to do so. No Union would cross another Union's picket lines, which meant NO WORK was ever accomplished. They seem to go on strike in the reverse order of how a project flows, completely stagnating the industry.

I knew this was how they worked, and why "to me" it was Mandatory that I held every necessary license to GET THE JOB DONE. I did not belong to any Union, and when union workers refused to work, because another union was on strike, I did the job myself, or hired non-union workers to keep the workflow on schedule.
I didn't have to WAIT for the Electricians strike to end, to finish the wiring, so the drywall installers could get to work. I didn't have to WAIT for the Plumbers strike to end, so the Electricians could begin work.
We were finishing up three houses for a customer, right down to having the furnace and AC system installed, when one of the unions went on strike. I don't remember which one now, but the men I hired to make the final duct work connections failed to show up for work. I called the company and was told such n such a union was on strike. I asked what that had to do with them, there's no HVAC union here, yet. Their duct workers belonged to either the Pipe Fitters Union or the Sheet Metal Union, or some such nonsense.
This was also in violation of their contract with me. The company I hired agreed to do the work between two specified dates, with no escape clauses. If they used union workers, then they MUST send non-union workers to complete the job between those specified dates, else the contract becomes null and void, and they must pay a $5,000.00 penalty. They got out of paying the penalty, because of the contract becoming null and void. I knew I should have used a different attorney to draw it up, hi hi...
Due to a string of strikes, one right after the other, these and a few other houses sat unfinished for over three months, until my licenses finally came through.
Once they did, I never hired another union worker after that time. They were NOT going to interfere with my not completely promises I made to my clients and customers. I paid higher than union scale so had no trouble hiring workers, many who dropped their unions to come to work for me. Why, because they knew they would have work instead of walking picket lines and causing trouble.

Unions need to be abolished, and have ever since the workman's laws were established. They benefit no one except themselves...

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Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Ice.Maiden » 05 Aug 2014, 13:02

Hi Gary,

By the same token, being in a union can help over here. We personally know of one family business where the bosses don't give a monkeys for their workers. They sack people at the drop of a hat, but go through the trumped-up legal motions of verbal and written warnings before firing the said employees. Most are peeved, but just walk away. Two didn't.

Last year, on separate occasions, these two workers were nothing short of "picked on". The manager wanted rid of them, to cull the workforce without having to pay redundancy money, so the most feeble of excuses were drummed up.

One had a supervisor go up for a chat. He couldn't hear what was being said, so switched his machine off and removed his ear defenders. The chat took just a few seconds and the worker then got back on with the job in hand.

Later the same day, this man needed the toilet. All employees're expected to ask for permission to leave their work stations, but no one in authority was around. He told a nearby workmate where he was going, and to tell the supervisor when he returned.

For 6 weeks, the supervisor kept an eye on him, and then he was called into the office after the initial warnings. His final complaint was that they'd had CCTV trained upon him, which'd seen him get up without asking for permission. In fact, this guy HAD got up after completing the work before him, and gone over to one of the bosses to ask if any more work was due in or if he was needed on another line.

When it came to facing this manager, the man denied all recall of having been asked about work, and then to add insult to injury, he said that the CCTV'd shown him acting with disrespect by turning his back on his wife who'd entered the factory (no mention of the fact that she'd entered a working area with no safety shoes or goggles on). The man hadn't noticed her come in anyway - as his colleagues'd observed and tried to stand up for him.

Dumbfounded, the worker objected, but was told to walk. However, he wasn't going to go meekly. He contacted ACAS (The Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service, which's a Crown non-departmental public body of the Government ) and TGWU (Transport and General Workers Union, which covers a multitude of trades) and explained what'd happened. They were very interested in his situation. To cut it short, this man took the company to court and won £3000 - not a lot - but he accepted an out of court settlement on the advice of ACAS. His bosses were also forced to offer to reinstate him, but he refused, knowing how he'd be treated after seeing numerous previous workers in a similar position.

The second man also took them to court and won a substantially larger pay-out than the other person received. The company were found to've broken several rules in the workplace, and some of these wouldnt've cropped up at all if a union presence would've been in operation.

I think there's for and against, but because I know these people and know that they treat their workers appallingly, they deserved to be taken to court. In fact, I honestly don't know how ANYONE can work in such a draconian environment.

He wasn't in a union, because this family business doesn't like to take on employees who are, but he wasn't going to accept being fired under such petty circumstances
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Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Kellemora » 06 Aug 2014, 08:34

Hi Icey

I have a few friends in the UK who belong to unions, and they operate considerably different than ours do here now. You guys are fortunate, the unions are still all about workers rights and safety.

Even here in my country, where you live, and what union influence has on each area, plays a major roll on whether the unions are helpful or a hindrance. Plus it depends on which organizations of unions are involved.
Here is a quick example. In my original home town area, unionized trades organization are powerful and cause the most problems, but unionized food service organizations, although powerful, don't cause any problems.
To work at the local chain grocery stores, even the checkers must belong to the checkers union. When the dairy aisle workers are on strike, the checkers still come to work, as do the unionized produce workers. In other words, they don't honor each others pickets unless it is an issue they all become involved in. More importantly, they are not vandals and troublemakers, causing problems because their job is temporarily handled by existing grocery store staff or management.
Trades unions are the exact opposite. Vandals, troublemakers, and other criminal activities abound.
Rather than working peacefully beside non-union shops, they cause as many problems as they possibly can.
They don't even properly respect their own fully unionized shops either.

As an example: Take a union shop of let's say twenty-five employee's, in a type of business where each post must be manned for the business to function.
One of the reasons the owners became a union shop, was the guarantee's made by the union.
Rather than the business owner keeping thirty employee's on staff, to ensure he had the necessary twenty-five on the line. By joining the union, he was assured every post would be filled. Meaning if a worker was out sick, the union hall would send over another qualified worker for the same job. Usually handled by seniority position at the union hall. They had several more members than available jobs anyhow.
By having five less employee's on the payroll, the owner could pay a higher rate of salary, knowing all posts would be manned.
But what do you do when the union itself does not honor their own contracts?
The business owner will call a temp agency for a non-union worker with the required skills.
Then the proverbial Fit hits the Shan, and the rest of the workers walk out on strike.
The union was in the wrong for not honoring the contract, and the unionized workers stood behind the unions injustice by striking, thus reaping further havoc on the company.
The company was wronged by the union bosses, wronged by the union employee's, and further wronged when they attack non-union workers brought in to replace them for not showing up for work.
This is how it worked in the HEAVILY Unionized towns, cities, and county I was raised in.
So it's no wonder unions are hated with a passion in my home area.
Albeit, I don't find this in all unionized industries in our area, and not so much in other areas of the country either. The many troubles caused by unions is what I was most familiar with, what affected our family business the most, although we prevailed every time, and who tried to hold me back from achieving my goals.
We didn't have to worry much about our employee's joining a union. We allowed the unions to distribute their materials to our employee's, and to hold membership drives, because we knew they were spinning their wheels.
There is a reason employee's who came to work for us in their mid-teens, stayed to long past their retirement years. Our normal salary ranges were higher than union scale and had more benefits. But the main key was, in 71 years of operation, we never laid off a single employee. If they were hired full-time, they were guaranteed a minimum 40 hour work week, with no lay-offs or cut hours. Something totally unheard of in a seasonal business like ours.
I have to get a good one in here before I close.
We had over fifteen full and part-time drivers working for us. The Teamsters were successful in getting the drivers at other businesses like ours to join their union. Which backfired on them big time, but that's another story. No matter how much propaganda they spread around to our drivers, no matter how many meetings they called, or incentives they offered, at most they only got perhaps two or three to check into it, or attend a meeting. Little did they know they were violating their own unions rules, by soliciting members of one union to leave their union to join another union. About 85% of our drivers were off-duty police and/or firemen, and they already belonged to their respective unions. The only ones that were not, were our OTR drivers, and they already belonged to the same union who was trying to get them to come aboard. Funny No?

Other like kind companies as ours, who's drivers did join the union, suddenly found they all ended their jobs. Not because the company replaced them with non-union drivers, but because the company sold their fleet of trucks and contracted their deliveries out to other existing delivery companies, whether unionized or not.
We were prepared to do the same ourselves if the off-duty drivers were made to not work for us. We probably should have anyhow, because we had numerous delivery companies in our area, who could make our deliveries on time, and cheaper than we could make them ourselves.
In a way, this is how I ended up driving OTR in the first place. We dealt in a steady flow of perishable products, not only for ourselves, but for several wholesalers as well. When the OTR drivers are on strike, it's like a quadruple whammy to the industry, that affect several industries. You can't put perishable products on hold! As a family member/owner/manager holding a class A CDL with all the necessary endorsements. It was not against the union rules for me to make a few runs. Even after they came back to work, I continued with my same route. This led to my being contracted to haul for a few others, and how I pulled several government loads across the country. Got me beat up a few times by union thugs, which only contributed to the 1001 reasons I hate unions with a passion. Don't mean I hate those who belong to unions! Several of my best friends are trapped in their unions because of the powerful stranglehold unions have in their industry.

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Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Ice.Maiden » 06 Aug 2014, 14:29

Thanks for that Gary. It seems much more simple over here. Workers' rights ARE defended, the same as working conditions have to come up to a certain standard. The days when shop stewards shouted "Everyone out! Down tools!" seem to've gone, but in January of this year, the TUC covered 54 unions, representing about 6m British workers. We have short postal or rail strikes, usually occurring when seeking better pay conditions, but the big unions also fight on a more personal level for the "small man", who might've been wrongfully fired for having time off due to illness, or they've been demoted /refused a job through gender, sexual orientation etc.

Over here, employees usually have a right to join or not to join a union, and an employer can't just take union subs from wages.
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Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Kellemora » 08 Aug 2014, 10:58

Realize I've been out of the trades now for just over a decade, so things may be a little different here now too, but I doubt it.

We have both Union and Non-union shops.
Non-union shops have a hard row to hoe, because all of their job sites are being picketed by the unions.
And if they buy materials from a union shop, or try to have them delivered by union drivers, neither will cross a picket line. So just getting the materials you need to the job site is a daunting task.

In all fairness, I do not see these problems experienced in my home town area, down here in the south as much. Probably because there are more non-union than union shops here. In some cases, probably like where you are, both union and non-union employees work side by side in the same industries.

There are major differences in the cost of licensing also.
Back home, one of the advantages of working your way up through the ranks to Journeyman level, was the cost for the examination was reduced by around 80% for union trained applicants, and the testing about 75% shorter.
Down here, the cost to take the tests for a license is the same, and the number of tests involved unchanged. You still have to have the five years hands-on documented experience, which can be documented by a union or by the city/county examiners. So there is still some benefit to working with a union up through journeyman.
Then the unions here have the same rules as back home. The prohibit you from advancing in the trades.

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Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Ice.Maiden » 08 Aug 2014, 11:32

Never come across that latter bit here, Gary. If a person has to sit a test, or they have the right qualifications for the job, then union or non-union makes very little difference, and advancement at work happens when someone's simply considered to be right for the job. Equal Opportunities mean that someone can't be refused promotion simply because they aren't a member of a particular union, and it applies to union members as well, in that an employer can't refuse to accept a job application/promotion just because they might be a member of a trade union when others aren't.

Perhaps the rules are changed for certain types of work, where everyone's expected to comply with company rules, but I've never had any personal experience of that.
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Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Kellemora » 09 Aug 2014, 11:40

Hi Icey

I just did some checking, and the laws in the UK governing Unions is considerably different than the laws here.

For example, if I read the information correctly, there is no limit to the number of unions you can join. Although belonging to different unions in the same field of endeavor wouldn't provide further benefits for the worker.
The dues could be prohibitive as well. I focused on the teachers unions in Leeds, a few teachers belong to ATL and NUT, but many have dropped out of NASUWT.

In the UK, since 1968, the Electricians Union AEEU, joined with the Plumbers Union forming the AEEPU. Just to cover the problem of paying double union dues while working in both fields of endeavor.

Here in the US, at the lower union levels, you are not exactly a full-member yet, only an apprentice in training. So during this time period, you can belong to more than one union. Which is why I could work my way up to Journeyman in both the Electrical and Plumbing trades concurrently. But once you make Journeyman, you cannot advance to Master without becoming a full union member.
Union dues vary, but average out to around 50 bucks a month. You earn very little while working as an apprentice, seniority keeps you on the bench quite often. So if you are lucky to make 150 bucks a week your first couple of years you are doing good. One thing handy about being an apprentice in two different trades at the same time, when I was on the bench at one, there was something nobody wanted to do at the other. Usually down in the trenches eating mud, or at the top of building outside on the roof.

Unlike some countries where you only need to learn the specific area you want to work in, to be licensed to work in that area. Here you must learn everything about each area to obtain your license. Although I would only be doing electrical work in a residential or light commercial setting. I still had to learn industrial and hospital, things I would never use, so would forget it all anyhow from lack of use.
It's sorta like having to learn to speak Korean, to teach an English class where you may have a few Spanish students. What's the purpose of having to learn Korean, if you will never be teaching or using it?
That's the way it is in the Trades here though. You must learn every aspect in every field to get that license.

But as I said, I'm now past three decades since I earned my licenses, and over decade since I worked in any trades fields. So a lot of changes may have taken place over the years.

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Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Ice.Maiden » 09 Aug 2014, 13:49

Hello Gary.

Well the changes're probably for the better, all-told. I think that any laws, be they at work or otherwise, can get extremely complicated.

Unions lay out their rules, but're sometimes bent towards leniency. Perhaps that's not the right expression, but someone was telling me that years ago when he was a member of the TGWU (Transport and General Workers union), he got a job in a factory where electrical items were assembled - namely TV's. He'd been there for about a year when the bosses decided to close the factory and move the work to a secondary one down in the south.

This meant that just about everyone'd lose their jobs, as no one was prepared to up sticks and move miles away. No matter how much the union argued that the place could keep going, it closed, so before that, they fought for every worker, to get the best redundancy packages they could.

This person mentioned above wasn't in line for anything. By rights, you have to've been at a workplace for 2 years I think - or a union member for 2 years, I'm not sure what he said now, but the steward had a quiet word, and said he'd see what he could do. On closure, the man had a lovely surprise, He ended up with wages owed, holiday pay that'd been due, plus a few thousand pounds, which the shortest- serving also received. So for him, the union came up trumps.
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Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Kellemora » 10 Aug 2014, 10:40

Sounds like he came out smelling like a rose.
We had something similar happen on a plumbing job.
The company didn't close, but a location problem for the pipeline caused a change.
All of us who were brought in to work on it, when the cancellation came through,
we each received a double paycheck for hours worked, a second travel expenses package, and a few other things to tide us over between job contracts. I think the main one of these is they covered our health insurance, both their part and our part for three months, which is when the next big contract came through.
It applied to everyone assigned to the job who clocked in the first four or five days. Not just the full union members. So we was all happy about that.

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Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Ice.Maiden » 10 Aug 2014, 18:10

That was a great bit of news, wasn't it? I love hearing about things like that.
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Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Kellemora » 11 Aug 2014, 10:30

Although almost unheard of in our industry.
When we closed down our 71 year old business, not one employee lost their job or pay scale, unless they chose to retire. Several of our employees were beyond retirement age, and did take retirement.
Unlike many businesses where competitors were at each others throats, it was not uncommon to offer swapped positions with employees. Each competitor had a range of services they grew the largest in. By the same token, they had employees who were better at one type of service than another.
As an example, if one employee preferred to work on larger designs, but their job did not get all that many large designs to work on. They may swap with a company who's main work was larger designs, for one at the exchanging company who's employee preferred working on the smaller more delicate designs.
In our process of closing down, we had hundreds of established commercial accounts. We didn't just sell them or pass them off to our competition as transfers. We put together a list of our competitors and what they specialized in, and sent this to our commercial accounts. This way the customer got to chose which company they preferred to do business with. Many were under contracts to keep their prices low. When we learned which company they preferred to do business with, we talked to them about taking over the contracts as written. Along with this deal, our employees who handled each of those jobs the best, would be given a job at the new company, at their current rate of pay or higher.
This worked for the good for all concerned. A competitor was not suddenly hit with orders they did not have the manpower or experience to fill, and as the customer was accustomed, plus the employees continued to do what they enjoyed doing, a job they were most familiar with, only under a new roof.
Because of the way we handled our shut-down, many of our competitors learned from our employees why and how our work lasted longer at a lower price they couldn't compete with previously. In other words, the trade secrets were passed on, so everyone benefited.
A few of the employee's had great advancement opportunities they could never earn working for us. Such as moving into management positions at their new jobs, and/or taking over the business from a retiring owner.
One of our employees became a department head for a major chain store operation, with at least 100 stores under his leadership.

So even in the end, our family could stand proud that we always treated our employees right.

TTUL
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Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Ice.Maiden » 11 Aug 2014, 10:51

Snap, and I tell you something Gary - there should be more employers like it. You must've been good people to work for, so you can hold your heads up. I'm sure the family and business won't be forgotten by the people who worked for you.
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Union Shops [split]

Postby Yogi » 09 Sep 2014, 09:51

NOTE
This topic was extracted from a thread that went off topic too far but was good enough to keep in the discussion forums. Please feel free to continue Union Shops discussions here.
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Re: Union Shops [split]

Postby Kellemora » 09 Sep 2014, 10:48

Hi Icey

Although I am anti-Union. They were a godsend to the working folks when they came into being. They did a lot of great and wonderful things to help workers have safer working conditions, more reasonable working hours, and higher pay and benefits. They were desperately needed and changed the course of history.
Their efforts are what led to the laws governing the workplace in many areas beneficial to the workers.

Once these laws were in place, and watchdog groups established to keep things under control. Unions have little to no affect on what new laws come about today. In fact, Unions are against most of them, even though they help the workers. Unions today are nothing but a private club so to speak, and used to control the workers more than help them.
I'm sure there are a few cases where a Union went to bat for one of their workers, if there was a benefit to the Union to do so, else it is nothing but a power and control issue with them anymore. I've seen them do more harm than good now for over thirty years.

My own case is a classic example of how they keep workers from getting ahead. Having rules that stifle a workers growth, while taking a share of their money to keep them under thumb. Their only goal today is to harass companies who don't use their members. Disrupt the flow of materials and labor, causing major headaches and higher prices across the board for everyone.

This is supposed to be a free country, but Unions have locked down several industries, turning it into a Union controlled dictatorship. I was raised in an area of overly heavy Union control, and although you could see some advantages, the damage they caused far outweighed the benefits.
Take our supermarket chains as an example: If the checkers were on strike, Union workers in other departments would not cross their picket lines. Only management could run the registers or stock the shelves. Getting good to the store was another problem, because the truck drivers were also Union, and would not cross the Checkers picket lines.
All it takes is for ONE of the six to eight Unions holding the grocery store Hostage, for product deliveries, and stocking shelves, to come to a standstill.
How do these actions benefit anyone? Stores cannot recover these losses easily, and it often takes years to make up for the lost income. All because they kowtowed to Union contracts.
If they didn't go Union, then every Union in the state sent folks to picket the stores 24/7 until they did.
In the old days, wasn't this called Racketeering?

If this truly was a free country, one would be able to open a business, hire employees, stock their shelves, and open the door to the public, without being picketed by a Union for not hiring Union workers.
To me, it is Discrimination, Harassment, and often Violence against a company and their employees.

I was a non-Union OTR driver, often hauling government loads for heavily Unionized companies. Needless to say, I had to avoid the common truck stops, and always had to have an armed escort ahead and behind me.

Even when I was driving our own companies trucks for our own purposes, word gets around fast, and Union THUGS come out of the woodwork everyplace you go to cause trouble. Although most of our OTR drivers were Union, once it was learned we had a few that were not, the number of times our trucks were vandalized by Union THUGS was phenomenal. Our own drivers caught their fellow Union members in the act of vandalizing our trucks a few times, and after a brawl, turned them in to the Union halls they belonged to. The Unions NEVER ONCE covered the damage their members did to our equipment. Although when we did have the names of those doing the damage, our insurance company sued a few of them, but none ever served time behind bars as they should have.

I've already mentioned many times the GRIEF Unions caused my and our families businesses.
They were just one of the many reasons we decided to shut-down our family operation after 71 years in business. Although none of our employees wanted to take the cuts they would have to take if they did go Union, it's the point we were still picketed by the disgraceful, lowly Unions, who had NOTHING of BENEFIT to offer our employees, and they told them so.

TTUL
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Re: Union Shops [split]

Postby Ice.Maiden » 09 Sep 2014, 14:21

Hello Gary.

Well, you could be right in much of what you say, but you know, the unions INTEND to bring services to a standstill. This was, and still is, part of their ploy to get their own way, but it's not all bad.

The unions over here fight for decent wage rises . I appreciate that this might not always be possible for a firm which's small or struggling, but right now, we have companies which haven't given their employees any rises at all for a few years. They know that people can't just leave, because there're no other similar jobs to go to, so disgruntled workers have to either accept it, or strike.

Some of these firms still want to make more profit than the year before - which's OK Jack when the money's going to end up in their own pockets, but they have to realise that without the workforce, they wouldn't be getting anything, and everyone has to live.

I know of a local family-run business who made well over £2m clear profit in 2013. This was an increase from previous years, and considering how businesses're falling like packs of cards, they were pretty happy with what they'd made. Meanwhile, the shop floor workers - under 30 of them - haven't had a wage rise in SIX years. Management received a fat 11% rise, so you can see why the rest of the employees're very unhappy.

There's no union membership at this place. They can't prevent folk from joining one, but make it pretty clear that anyone who decides to join one'll soon be out of work - by using crafty ways of legitimately getting rid of people, but by picking on the slightest thing so that they either leave of their own accord or get fired for breaking some petty rule.

I think there's for and against. The way you ran your businesses, you cared for your workforce, but many don't, and this's where unions can help. They're not out to deliberately destroy the hand that feeds, but seek fairness. On saying that, when the unions were extremely powerful over here, they'd get their members to strike for pathetic reasons, where common sense should've prevailed.
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Re: Union Shops [split]

Postby Kellemora » 10 Sep 2014, 12:53

Hi Icey

If an employer decides to make his business a Union Shop, he usually does so to ensure he has qualified workers for the positions he needs filled every single day.
As a Union Shop, he should not have non-Union workers, except for those areas not unionized.

Down the street may be a like kind business that is non-Union. The perfect place for non-union workers to land a job. If they don't like how their employer treats them, they can move on to someplace else.
It is not uncommon for a company to set a ceiling wage scale for a particular job, and once an employee reaches that plateau, they are stuck there unless they advance to a higher position in the company with a higher pay scale.

Herein is one of the major differences between Union and non-Union businesses.
The Union hall will send over workers qualified to fill the job openings. The worker is paid Union Scale for the particular job type. A worker can advance within the Union to a higher pay scale, but as far as the business goes, that Union worker is gone, and another takes his place for the particular job, at the same pay scale as before to the business.
In a non-Union business, the business owner trains the employees, starts many out at the bottom and allows them to learn and advance through the departments, with a pay raise for each advancement. By the same token, if the employee does the same job day in and day out, with a fixed pay scale for that job, naturally they will not get a raise above the ceiling set for that job.
Has nothing to do with the number of years someone works for a company, it has to do with what the job duties warrant. Most companies do give out raises along with inflation once an employee hits the ceiling for the job they are doing.
Which is not true in Unionized Shops, they only pay what Union Scale is for that particular job. Period.
The business pays a little more to get a Unionized worker, because they know the scale is fixed for the job, and there will always be someone at the work station who knows the particular job. The name on their shirt pocket doesn't matter to much to management, since they are a Union robot so to speak.

The primary reason our employees were not interested in joining the unions that came by with their propaganda, was because we already paid more than Union scale and had better benefits. Not only would they have to take a cut in pay, but they would also have to pay Union dues, attend meeting, and walk picket lines. In other words, there was no incentive for them to join.
Didn't matter, the Unions still picketed our shop when the mood struck them to do so.
It doesn't make one bit of sense for a Union to picket a non-Union shop, other than for the purpose of HARASSMENT of the business and their customers. In fact, if you are a Union member, most have rules about patronizing non-Union businesses, a form of Discrimination against your fellow man.
There's technically no difference between a Union member and a Gang member!

Management is a separate entity than Labor. So what if Management got an 11% raise, perhaps they earned it. What does that have to do with the Labor end of the equation?
It's like comparing Walnuts to Banana's...
It's like saying, because the sales team made better deals and turned a higher profit, their commission should be cut, and their earning given to the janitors and stock boys, who have not been keeping up the normal pace.
One departments production rate, has nothing to do with the other departments production rate.

If the employees are unhappy about management getting a raise, perhaps they should work harder and earn their way into a management position.

There is an example of this in the Scriptures: Where an owner went out to the highways and byways in the early morning and hired several workers to work in his field, and offered them a fixed price for doing so. They had the choice to say no, but most gladly accepted the MORE THAN FAIR price they were offered.
Around noon the owner went out again and hired another group of workers, offering them the same fixed amount.
Then again around three pm he went out and brought in more workers, so his fields would get done before nightfall.
At the end of the day, he chose to pay those he brought in last first.
The others seeing they were paid the full price, thought they would get more than they agreed on.
Those who slaved in the hot fields all day long felt they should be paid more than what they agreed to and went away complaining about how the owner robbed them of what was rightfully theirs.
They agreed to work all day for a fixed price, higher than the normal rate.
They were happy to be making so much for a days work.
But because they SAW those who worked less get equal pay, they felt robbed.
When they should have felt good about the owner treating the latter so kindly.
They were not cheated one iota, and in fact paid more than the going rate.
But now they are badmouthing the owner as being evil.

Sorta sounds like the disgruntled employees you mentioned above.
They agreed to work for a specific salary, and because they see someone else getting paid more for what they perceive as either less work or a different kind of work, they are mad about it and complaining.
Did they not get paid what they agreed to work for?
If they are unhappy, they know where the door is!
There are many who will be GLAD to take over their job for them.

TTUL
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