Afghanistan incident

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Afghanistan incident

Postby Wonderbunny » 07 Nov 2013, 14:04

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Re: Afghanistan incident

Postby Yogi » 08 Nov 2013, 07:35

My first reaction is that I would have liked to read your take on the incident. It's obviously moving enough for you to publish, but just what part of "two enemies out to kill each" other is questionable? I know about the Geneva Convention, but the authors of that document were not in a kill or be killed situation at the time they wrote it. If you are going to have a war, have a war. And, don't pussyfoot around about rules of engagement. As the saying goes, all is fair in love and war.
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Re: Afghanistan incident

Postby Wonderbunny » 11 Nov 2013, 13:39

My own reaction is that the Geneva Convention is there for a reason and that killing an injured prisoner of war isn't a kill or be killed situation.
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Re: Afghanistan incident

Postby Yogi » 12 Nov 2013, 07:41

Wikipedia wrote:The Geneva Conventions comprise four treaties, and three additional protocols, that establish the standards of international law for the humanitarian treatment of war.

This direct quote is laughable. If war mongers were serious about being humanitarian there would not be any wars to begin with. The fact is that when you are in a war zone at all, it is a kill or be killed situation. The Geneva treaties were composed in reaction to what went on in WWII where genocide and use of gas warfare was rampant. All I heard about what has recently gone down in Syria is how the guy who is responsible for the use of chemical weapons and genocide there should be talked to and not taken out. Ohhhhh please. At least be consistent if you can't be practical.
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Re: Afghanistan incident

Postby JackGriffin » 12 Nov 2013, 08:20

I will not 'judge' this Royal Marine - as I was not there to experience what that particular group were going through - or had been through!

In the 'civilised world' - we train killers to protect us but seem only too eager to 'offer up' those who are deemed - to have gone too far & have become an embarrassment due to free press coverage. WAR - Huh - what is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!
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Re: Afghanistan incident

Postby AJRC » 18 Nov 2013, 07:39

This Marine sergeant does not stand for the Army, he's an evil man who deserves to have the book thrown at him. As with every walk of life you get your bad apples, you get people who think the excuse of "casualties of war" gives them the right to do what they want. This man chose to execute an injured and unarmed man, it makes no difference what the insurgent had done. Murder is murder, whether in civi life or in war!

War is never nice, seen it, done it, got the bloodied tee-shirt. But when we become no better than the people we're fighting, then the enemy has already won.
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Re: Afghanistan incident

Postby van » 25 Dec 2013, 00:04

Kia ora

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Geneva Conventions apart from specifying the conduct of War, are also a protection for the Populace at large. Currently those Conventions are a joke given that superior forces readily destroy infrastructure on which the Civilian Population is reliant. Given that such actions are rampant what is there to suggest that the "Conduct of War" is in any way or form an acceptable way to settle disputes?


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Re: Afghanistan incident

Postby van » 25 Dec 2013, 00:36

@ AJ
"But when we become no better than the people we're fighting, then the enemy has already won."

Kia ora Andy

The people 'we' are fighting are an obstacle to the Political and Colonial expansion of the landed gentry seeking to enrich themselves. 'WE' are lambs to the slaughter, having no idea why we seek to kill our fellow men save for the edict that 'they' are the 'Enemy'!
On the other hand, the 'Enemy', safeguarding Hearth and Home will have no compunction to use all and every means available to destroy the 'Invader'.
I put it to you that the "Enemy" is within, a total disregard for the way of Life and Culture of a Society of whom, by and large, we are f@#$%^ng ignorant of and are persuaded to destroy primarily due to our own ignorance.

Tell me Andy, how would you feel being described in your own terms as the "Enemy", defending 'Your Homeland' in whatever way possible, #@$% the Geneva Conventions? A Hero???
Hopefully food for thought.

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Re: Afghanistan incident

Postby AJRC » 27 Jan 2014, 07:20

Totally agree, van. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. But there's a huge culture difference our Army, by an large, don't target civilians. The Taliban do target civilians on an almost daily basis. You have to remember there's a lot of sectarianism in Afghanistan.

In Iraq and the Balkans we were seen as the invading enemy, but we had a job to do. To protect the oppressed who couldn't protect themselves. I'm thankful i left the Army in 98 and didn't partake in Afghanistan and Iraq as i was opposed to both theatres of war. Those wars weren't fought to free the oppressed, as you say they were fought for colonial expansion and to enrich themselves, namely with lots and lots of oil. I believe those wars and the trillions spent on them contributed to the failure of Dubya's economy and later the worlds. I'm glad the conflicts in Egypt, Libya and Syria have been allowed to be played out by their own people without any intervention from ourselves. It's the way we should have dealt with Iraq.

I remember a veteran once told me when i was 18 that it took fighting in a war to truly understand the horrors and to really hate war. I didn't understand him then, but by god i do now.
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Re: Afghanistan incident

Postby van » 18 Feb 2014, 01:05

Kia ora Andy

Compliments of season past and looking for a better future.
Been sitting on this for some time, no offence intended.

Very little in life makes sense. The mores of one Culture are anathema to another and when they clash, all Hell breaks loose. "WE" are no better! Scratch the surface and our veneer readily exposes the underlying rot. What gives us the right to determine how others should live? Haven't we done enough damage with our incessant meddling in others affairs as shown in History? Many of these current clashes are directly attributable to past interference based on the assumption of Western Cultural Superiority!

The recent clashes in the ME has seen the West randomly destroy infrastructure upon which the civilians depend for survival. This despite the Geneva Conventions banning such yet you say "WE" don't target civilians? Come now! In Syria "WE" provide the wherewithal for the dissenters to the current regime with the end result that yet again the civilians suffer! The same can be said about what took place in Libya! Some of the most brutal regimes in the World are supported and condoned by "US" yet "we" don't attack civilians??

As a wise man once said:"Remove the 4x2 from your own eye before concerning yourself with the dust mote in your neighours eye". While I am not a pacifist I prefer negotiation to brute strength and ignorance for in taking that path there are only losers. While I am pro-life I will not condemn a woman seeking an abortion for it is a choice I will never have to make in respects to my body, thus who am I to cast stones?

While we "WE" profess to be as pure as the driven snow, in reality "WE" are a coldhearted lot who are grateful for the snow's cover blanketing our ugly reality. Where is our shining light when it comes to protecting the child? Where is our conversion from weapons to plow shares? No my friend, "we" are no better than "them", it's just that '"we" are more adept at hiding our darkness; any light
which shines forth is not due to our 'illuminated Culture' but rather more like the spotlight held by the hunter as he seeks to ensnare his prey.

To drive home my point, consider the following:
Dresden, a city with no strategic value, over run with refugees and recuperating wounded, burned to a crisp, women and children all. It was done to drive home the message to advancing Russian forces that the Allied Command controlled the Air and had the potential to mete out the same to Russia should she seek to expand her territory beyond that which the Allies permitted.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki, again the message was clear, "We have the 'Ultimate Weapon' tread carefully" besides, while the power of the weapons was known there was no experience of the total destruction wrought on a specific target and scientists wanted answers.
Vietnam, chemical defoliant, napalm and cluster bombs, indiscrimately used on the civilian population.
Iraq Depleted uranium, mass destruction of infrastructure and of course 'Collateral Damage'.

History is written by the Victor and as always they ensure that their own atrocities are either ignored or else 'cooked up' to be unfortunate 'mistakes' or the 'brutal necessity of war'. It doesn't alter the truth however that when it comes to war no one side has the moral high ground, never has never will have.
It is a shame that the message you were given as an 18yr old took some time to sink in.

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Re: Afghanistan incident

Postby AJRC » 26 Feb 2014, 04:11

Van, there are not many hot blooded 18 year olds that will listen to anything, let alone an old man banging on about the horrors of war. It was only 10 years later when i wanted out that i started to realise wars were changing. No longer were we there to defend the oppressed, we were the oppressors! As i said i got out in 98, the Balkans were my last battleground. As you say in Afghanistan and Iraq the entire infrastructure was destroyed with no plan on what to do to help the civilians afterwards. There were other priorities other than civilians in those wars. I've said before, my friend in the US Army used to tell me Al-Qaeda could attack an entire village a little way from them and they'd be told to not attack unless attacked first, but if one tiny little oil compound was attacked 10 miles away the entire camp would be mobilised for battle.

Yes, history is written by the victor. But i think with the media blanketing wars with cameras now, i think the victors atrocities will no longer go unpunished now. There are probably hundreds if not thousands of small incidents that the Army covers up, they're good at that, but at least we see that our side isn't perfect.

As has been said before wars won't be fought to fight for freedoms anymore, wars will be fought over resources. I fear for the future of our children and our children's, children.
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Re: Afghanistan incident

Postby van » 04 Mar 2014, 01:01

Kia ora Andy

I am not casting stones at you for signing up as an 18yr old, we all have to make choices at certain times and some are bound to be regretted sooner or later.
My main point is that "WE" are always cast as the Uber Mensch, an assertion to soothe our own brutality. While there are more media about it does not logically follow that there are less excesses. The backroom deals done in conjunction with military 'advice', weapons supply and funding facilitate total war and destruction yet because "WE' stand on the 'sidelines' WE take the moral high ground.
Were that all that money, energy and experience be brought to bear via the UN in Police and Peace keeping, I would be more inclined to agree with you, alas this is not the case.
If we don't condemn other Nations or oppose factions bent on warfare, we are no better than them.

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Re: Afghanistan incident

Postby AJRC » 24 Mar 2014, 07:35

I agree, with all the media around there are still atrocities committed by "our" side. Look at Fallujah in Iraq as a perfect example of the atrocities "we" are capable of under the guise of liberators. A lot of people hold the moral high ground and say what "we" did was just, but when we use terror and WMD we are no better than the people we claim to be better than. And on talk forums the biggest supporters of the wars, and the atrocities that came with them, were christians. I couldn't believe their warmongering and bloodlust at first then i just got used to it.

Recently we've just appeased Russia, they marched troops into the Crimea and we did nothing. Somalia and Rwanda we did nothing, mind you they have no oil so shouldn't have expected much. As you say if we made ourselves the real world police people couldn't complain, but we don't. We cherry pick based on resources who we help and who we ignore.

I agreed with Egypt and Libya, we were right to stay out of it and let the people sort it out for themselves.

I don't think we ever have been better than "them", nor will we ever be. No matter what our religion we can't hold the moral high ground and support terrorist tactics to fight terrorists. We can't use WMD and then condemn others for using them. We can't condemn torture then support torture when we do it. If it lets some sleep at night to think they are better then so be it, but they live in cloud cuckoo land.
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Re: Afghanistan incident

Postby van » 26 Mar 2014, 01:15

Kia ora Andy

What appeasement toward Russia? Do you know the historical background? Or are you too absorbed in the Western Propaganda Media Machine to draw your own conclusions? The West has time and again re-drawn boundaries to facilitate the expansion of its own interests and agendas and the recent cases in the ME, Libya, Syria and now Ukraine are mere examples.

The people held a referendum and demanded change. The West sought to stifle that and Russia stepped in to protect its own citizens and guard its borders against the encirclement by NATO. The situation in Crimea is merely a return to the status quo given that Khrushchev 'gave' the Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 in like manner that the West wanting to get rid of the Jews gave Palestine to them irrespective of the wishes and desires of the Palestine inhabitants.

Why do we tolerate the situation in Palestine? where is the talk about appeasement toward Israel in its treatment of the Palestinians? Why don't we demand that Palestine be given back to its inhabitants? And while we are on the topic what about the inhabitants of Diego Garcia?and indeed any number of other places which spring to mind.

"WE" are 'RIGHT' simply because "WE" dominate the Political landscape, "WE" dominate the Media and anybody who threatens us is likely to have "Democracy" and "Freedom" imposed on them to ensure that they march in lockstep to our Agendas.

Do the people literally 'sort things out'? Rest assured that the West keeps close tabs on every movement afoot in areas it deems of strategic importance to itself. If it suits to let the people be massacred to further its own ends, it will merely "Tut, tut" at the atrocities committed. One only needs to look at the various oppressive regimes which are regarded as "friendly" by those in the West.

As you say if we made ourselves the real world police people couldn't complain, but we don't.

You have me at a disadvantage here. I don't recall having made such a comment and certainly do not support such an idea. The UN was established to Police and encourage Peace in the World but unfortunately those who appear to cause the most mayhem in the World blithely ignore that Charter and indeed the Geneva Conventions as and when it suits them.

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Re: Afghanistan incident

Postby AJRC » 26 Mar 2014, 06:35

Yes, Crimea has had a turbulent history, but Russia marching troops in before the vote was wrong. The joke goes the Crimean people rushed to the polls to vote for never voting again.

Oh i agree with you on Palestine, not sure what we could do, but the Palestinian's should have their own land back. I visit more right wing talk forums and any mention of giving Palestine back to it's people is met with "anti-Semitic" or "die Jew hating fag." It's not about race. Religion dictates what happens in that region, stupid, pathetic religion. Is it the holy land, is it just a load of sand?

"The "UN" is little more than its most powerful few member states. The security council has it's own agenda, which basically means the agenda of the US and UK. If it's not in their interest to police, then they'll quite happily ignore the slaughter of millions.
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