i so agree...

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Re: i so agree...

Postby kg » 12 Nov 2011, 17:48


I'm kind of partial to the Northwest Territory, except for the extreme cold and snow in the winter, and mossies the size of medium sized dogs in the summer. But other than that... :lol:
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Re: i so agree...

Postby pilvikki » 12 Nov 2011, 21:21

that's everything north of toronto...

what about nunavut? now there is some serious landarea for you!
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Re: i so agree...

Postby Yogi » 16 Nov 2011, 09:28

My take on the OWS movement is that they are advocating anarchy, Howard Zinn et.al.. It's all about being anti-big and has little thought or direction other than that. The "system" is what the people under it want. The wars, poverty, stupidity, and cruelty are due to the fact that not everybody is qualified or smart enough to be in the upper 1%. Deal with it, people :!:

No matter how you distribute the wealth or apply the laws of your society, there will STILL be an upper 1% running things. Take a look at how animal communities or Communist governments are run if you need examples. The chant for a grass roots take over of big business and big government is about as asinine as it gets. The leaders of government and big corporations are not there as a result of a revolution. They worked their way up from the 99%. Instead of occupying public streets and parks, they were in school, working, and learning the system. They didn't expect a free ride just by whining that the system is unfair.

I'm not saying the world is a perfect place, but anarchy is not the way to make it better.
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Re: i so agree...

Postby AJRC » 16 Nov 2011, 14:21

The problem is a lot didn't work their way up. You know the old saying "it's not what you know, it's who you know." Cronyism happens just as much in big business as it does big government. We've seen how the bankers bankrupt whole nations but still manage to get obscene bonuses.

No Anarchy would be no better than what we have now, but i don't think most of the OWS want that either. They want a better system, not no system at all. The OWS movement is coming under attack by a lot of people who simply don't understand. I see it on the loony forums all the time, it's hippie this and hippy that. But you'll find that a lot of OWS people are people with good jobs and high education. They are just sick of being screwed over by banks, big corporations and government. They're sick of being sheeple and just accepting their lot in life.

This movement won't go away, it's a global phenomenon now. Change may not come soon, but it will come.
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Re: i so agree...

Postby Yogi » 16 Nov 2011, 14:50

Whether you worked your way up or had somebody pull you to the top, keep in mind that only the top 1% get there and stay there. It's not a matter of how you got to be in power. The competition at the top is more brutal than any of those 99%-ers are capable of facing.

The character and tactics of the OWS people bring back memories of the anti-war hippies during the Viet Nam era. I'm sure that's why your forum friends are flipping out. There were a lot of influential well educated people marching against that war too, but they were not smart enough to change anything. Only the people in power can make changes.

You are right about changes in government going global. The changes are a result of what the people want, exactly as is the status in the UK and in America today. All those newly formed governments are STILL going to be run by 1% of the smartest and most durable politicians and corporate leaders to emerge out of the 99% groups. If you are out of work and feeling abused by big government and corporations I feel sorry for you. But sitting in the park until you get arrested isn't going to make things better. :roll:
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Re: i so agree...

Postby kg » 16 Nov 2011, 16:15

I see there have been a couple of posts made since I started composing this. I will post my thoughts as I put them down, but with one additional comment:

The OWS movement can't be compared to the '60s/'70s Antiwar movement. The reasons and the situations that brought them about are completely different. The Anti-Vietnam war movement was just that...a protest against involvement in a war. The OWS movement is a protest involving a much wider and potentially devastating range of issues...(un)employment, housing, the obvious deterioration of the U.S. and worldwide economy, availability of food and potable water...it's a very poignant sign of growing concern with matters of personal survival.

Now to my original thoughts....

Yogi wrote:I'm not saying the world is a perfect place, but anarchy is not the way to make it better.


You are right, of course, but in every "great civilization" there comes a time in its history where things deteriorate to the point that dramatic change is not only desirable, but becomes necessary. Though an undesirable by-product, sometimes anarchy does rear its ugly head for a while, but after the turmoil settles a new system of government takes the old one's place. In general, people do not desire anarchy...especially those who have experienced it.

Is anarchy actually what the OWS movement is advocating? I seriously don't think so. That may be what it seems to an outside observer, but as an "entity," I seriously don't think they know what they want, except in general terms. In general, they want change from the way things are...positive change...and can you really blame them?

Is it too much, too soon? I don't know. Things seem to be falling apart around us. "Things fall apart; the centre can not hold." If "change" keeps happening in the direction it's going now, the "time" may be sooner than anyone anticipates. No matter the small change that might be implemented now, the big change is inevitable.

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it." We in the U.S. have soundly ignored history, both ancient and more recent, and we are now reaping what we've sown. Will the U.S. go down that historical path? Either soon, or a bit later. It is historically inevitable. The OWS movement is merely an indicator; a symptom of that approaching inevitability.

Your post set me on a solid round of musings and contemplation, and sometimes those musings can be dark and foreboding. May history prove me a fool twenty times over and point out that, in spite of historical precedence, the United States was truly the first great society that was that was "too big to fail."
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Re: i so agree...

Postby kg » 16 Nov 2011, 19:07


You know, I was sitting here watching the national news, and had a further thought on this subject.

I am currently watching some of the events of unrest in other countries, and I came to a realization. The OWS movement is by no means confined to this country. The idea didn't even start here. It is but one manifestation among many occurring world-wide of the same issues I pointed out above.

The population of the entire world is becoming increasingly aware, if not fully cognizant, of what is happening in the world at large. Can the blame be laid at the U.S.' doorstep? While many do, and some can be, it's not entirely to blame. Things have been happening the world over for a number of years now that have contributed to it in some manner or other.

Did the U.S. cause the financial crisis in Greece? One would have to stretch all credulity to come to that conclusion. While our own recession in 2008 may have precipitated the EU financial crisis to some degree, those conditions had already existed and were teetering on the edge. Our recession just gave it a little "nudge."

No, while we're a prime example, we're not the total cause, any more than OWS is the leading example of unrest against these issues. It is, once again, only a symptom. The general populace just doesn't know what to do, but they want to make sure they get the attention of those who do (or are supposed to). It doesn't seem as if those people will pay attention to anything else.
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Re: i so agree...

Postby pilvikki » 17 Nov 2011, 03:04


All those newly formed governments are STILL going to be run by 1% of the smartest and most durable politicians and corporate leaders to emerge out of the 99% groups.


umm... that's where my opinion differs: at no time can it be said that all the 1% are solely the smartest. durable, yes, but there definitely is a LOT more to them than just smarts. i'm talking about being connected, having been born privileged and often enough not giving a rat's ass about anyone else, but those who matter to them.

how else would you explain execs getting huge pay-offs instead of jailtime? how else would you explain high ranking nazis building atom bombs in america as the government's guests of honor? how else does one explain kahn getting off on all charges? and how else does the italian president in a catholic country get to resign instead of jail? brian mulroney, the canadian PM who was involved in more shady deals than a yonge st hooker, is now living well in florida with millions.

etc. etc.

when i sit here and think there is nothing legal i can think of to remedy this situation, i'm pretty sure that there are others, more warlike than silly ol' me who be thinking the same thing.

and that, sportsfans is the beginning of yet another end.

...the same valse triste our species has been dancing forever and still hasn't figured it out!
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Re: i so agree...

Postby AJRC » 17 Nov 2011, 10:36

I agree, never smartest.
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Re: i so agree...

Postby kg » 17 Nov 2011, 14:24


I'm sitting here watching what's currently going on with the OWS movement in many cities across the nation. Things are coming to a boiling point. This is completely different from the '60s and '70s war protests and becoming increasingly more so.

In scene after scene and interview after interview, the dominant kind of individual I see is not the "hippy," "ne'er-do-well," or "lazy person that wants everyone else to hand everything to them" that the pundits and right-wing commentators say dominate the movement. You see middle America (if such exists, anymore)...well-dressed, well-groomed people; small businessmen who are barely able to maintain their businesses because no one can afford to patronize them. And they are all angry, and getting more angry!

In another thread, I posted one of my worst nightmares. That was my sleeping nightmare. You want my worst waking nightmare? It's contemplating what the government's reaction might be if and when this situation boils over! That's truly a nightmare! It's a nightmare you don't wake up from and say, "Phew! It was only a nightmare." Unfortunately, you wake up into this nightmare!

One other consideration, though. It's well known that there are Veterans among the protesters, and many in the military who are sympathetic. Will the military be willing to "do what it takes" if and when the time comes? If they don't watch their reaction, the Government might end up with not much of a military. Then they'd have to pull a "Tiananmen Square" on us.

It's a very complicated situation, and I'm seriously not sure about the possible outcomes. I'm very sure no one is.
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Re: i so agree...

Postby AJRC » 20 Nov 2011, 07:27

I agree. The right wing forums and obviously Fox state that all the OWS people are hippies, drop outs, unemployed and the type who just doesn't want to work but just wants hand outs. It's not until you see the actual people there interviewed you realise just what lies and propaganda they peddle. The OWS are mainly middle class, intelligent and employed people who are just sick of accepting the status quo. Yes, you do get the lazy who just want a free ride, and yes those people are all the right wing and FOX focus on. But they're just not a true representation of the majority of the OWS people.

It's like going to a teaparty rally and finding all the most bigoted, racist, homophobic rednecks and saying they represent the majority of the teaparty. Um, wait a minute... ;)
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