Exlusitivity

[pilvikki]

i fully agree with that!

religion was around to explain things for us, as the tree of life, legends of creativity, rivers separating the living from the dead etc.

now we have other ideas about how we came to be and can either keep the faith or draw other conclusions. yet they should ALWAYS be kept personal and preferably private. well, BF discussions excepted. :P

[van]

Kia ora Hooch

The problem as I see it is that those who have gotten "religion" have mobilised themselves to such an extent that to question their belief is a taboo subject.
Those who go about their way quietly in their belief are never a problem, whereas those quick to condemn "sinners", raise Cain when questioned :grin:

Arohanui
Shalom
Bill

[pilvikki]

considering the taliban, i'm eyeing the JW's a bit more tolerantly: at least they only try to talk you into a coma, instead of shooting you if you don't agree.

[van]

Kia ora Hooch

Hehehe. Jws do not bear arms and believe that God will take care of all things. In that sense they stick to the admonition of the scriptures, unlike some who appear to be of the opinion that God requires a helping hand!

Arohanui
Shalom
Bill

[G5Pontiac]

The worst and most numerous atrocities were not committed by religions, or believers, in recent years, starting in the 20th Century. Atheists committed those atrocities and hold the largest body count.

[threenorns]

source, please?

[G5Pontiac]

Do your own research, please. My assertion stands.

[threenorns]

when i say something, i have the courtesy to reference a source.

so you're saying your OPINION, unbacked by any actually inconvenient fact, is that atheists are the bad guys.

funny - last i checked, the twig was a die-hard christian.

[G5Pontiac]

when i say something, i have the courtesy to reference a source.

No, you don't have any courtesy.

[van]

Kia ora Silja

Patience my dear. Methinks a concession has been made. The expression "in recent yrs " points in that direction. Now we can examine the 20th century onward.
The founders,implementers, executioners of the Communist philosophy now require examination. I have made mention of the Cheka, yet it would appear that either that has not been researched or found to be unpalatable.
Nazi Germany had "Gott mit Uns" on their belt buckles, others "In God we Trust". To this day Western armies go into battle with a padre and often have a prayer,service before going into action. Why even some diehard evangelists scream "Kill,kill the heathen!" from their pulpit as they throw their weight behind their Govts military adventures.
Obviously little has changed, now a case of opening eyes and minds a little wider.

Arohanui
Shalom
Bill

[pilvikki]

you would not think that the nazis had any claim for god's indulgence, but apparently they thought they did. that leaves the commies the only people who supposedly were atheists, even though many russians weren't.

[van]

Kia ora Hooch

There are many historical links one find to research the rise of Communism and who were the main movers and shakers. An eyeopener!

Arohanui
Shalom
Bill

[pilvikki]

well, trotsky was a jew, stalin went to a catholic school, lenin was a lawyer [big surprise there...], i didn't know anything about the rest, but they look pretty run of the mill...?

now, karl marx, on the other hand, isn't at all what i thought he was:

The worker becomes all the poorer the more wealth he produces, the more his production increases in power and range. The worker becomes an ever cheaper commodity the more commodities he creates. With the increasing value of the world of things proceeds in direct proportion to the devaluation of the world of men. Labour produces not only commodities; it produces itself and the worker as a commodity -- and does so in the proportion in which it produces commodities generally.

Marx, Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts (1844)

Karl Heinrich Marx was born into a comfortable middle-class home in Trier on the river Moselle in Germany on May 5, 1818. He came from a long line of rabbis on both sides of his family and his father, a man who knew Voltaire and Lessing by heart, had agreed to baptism as a Protestant so that he would not lose his job as one of the most respected lawyers in Trier.

so, he was a jew as well.

for some reason i always had gotten the idea that it was karl marx who started communism, but apparently not. not even close.

i got to look into this a bit more...

[van]

Kia ora Hooch

You have but scratched the surface. Another source if my memory serves me right is Soltsenietsin? More than happy to share some of the research I have uncovered.

Arohanui
Shalom
Bill

[pilvikki]

ah, i'm just rereading "one day in the life of ivan denisovich", probably my favourite novel.

my mother's father took off to to russia as he was a devout communist. however, he didn't like the russian brand of it, openly critized the party bosses, was soon tossed into jail where he died. at least that's how the story goes.

as to what these "gentlemen" leaders did, well, that's a different story altogether. i'm thinking they were all insane.

[van]

Kia ora Hooch

Both religion and politics have a tendency toward exclusiveness and divisiveness and use similar tactics to shut down opposition.

Arohanui
Shalom
Bill

[G5Pontiac]

Is that like the name calling and persecution against Christians, Van?

Also "exclusiveness and divisiveness" are not always a vice; sometimes they're a virtue.

[G5Pontiac]

It's too extensive and complex to go into now, but many authorities believe that the British Fabian Society released Communism on the world. Some even consider the Russian's "Soviet Communism" as a Fabian lab experiment. The powerful Fabian society instigated, and partially funded, the Red take-over during the Russian Revolution against the Tsars. This was the intent of the British Fabians of that time.

Here is a link to some more information about Fabians. http://nord.twu.net/acl/revisionism.html

I can't vouch for this, and I don't have all the particulars or knowledge about this, but it is food for thought.

[van]

Kia ora Stan

Interesting link

The ultimate goal of the British Empire was to control world trade. The ultimate goal of the American Colonial Revolution was to promote trade union affiliations among the member states. The young nation defended national traders against foreign imperial merchants and terrorists. The American system protected the independent common born American merchant against the favored aristocratic companies established by the Crowns of Europe.

Instead it is now under the Corporate Dynasty of the Elite. Not inherited Royalty, but a rose by any other name.....
As far as gaining control of World Trade is concerned, need I say more??

Arohanui
Shalom
Bill

[van]

Kia ora Stan

Might I suggest a perusal of the following link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society

It will be noted that "Social Democracy" and all that entails was their emphasis. Communism as I have often expressed to you is a different ball game from Socialism. Please note the link's following statement

The Fabian Society is a British socialist movement, whose purpose is to advance the principles of Social democracy via gradualist and reformist, rather than revolutionary means.

My emphasis

Arohanui
Shalom
Bill