A question

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A question

Postby Ice.Maiden » 10 Jul 2014, 16:20

Why is bra in the singular, but panties in the plural? :shock:
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Re: A question

Postby pilvikki » 10 Jul 2014, 17:42


ok, lets find out...

brassiere (n.) Look up brassiere at Dictionary.com
18c., "woman's underbodice," from French brassière "child's chemise; shoulder strap" (17c.), from Old French braciere "arm guard" (14c.), from bras "an arm," from Latin bracchium (see brace (n.)). Modern use is a euphemistic borrowing employed in the garment trade by 1902.


if I remember right pants were a 2 piece job to start with. yep/

According to Michael Quinoin at World Wide Words, pants are a pair because, "before the days of modern tailoring, such garments, whether underwear or outerwear, were indeed made in two parts, one for each leg. The pieces were put on each leg separately and then wrapped and tied or belted at the waist (just like cowboys’ chaps). The plural usage persisted out of habit even after the garments had become physically one piece


solved. :mrgreen:
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Re: A question

Postby Ice.Maiden » 10 Jul 2014, 19:28

Thank you! :shock:

You've taught me something there.
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Re: A question

Postby Kellemora » 11 Jul 2014, 12:42

Bravo Pil, you nailed it, on both counts.

It is odd though, with the number of words that do change meaning from era to era, usually from misuse of a word, that some of the really ancient words and phrases keep hanging in there, almost forever.

One good example is the word "Band."
Unless you return to an old unabridged dictionary, you will not find the musical use of the word "Band" used properly in modern dictionaries.

Albeit, the word "Band" besides having many things it refers to, including "a group of persons, animals, or things, united together for some common end.

Using the word "Band" to describe "a group of musicians organized for playing together," is a fairly new use of the word, as found in modern dictionaries.

But herein lies the new problem created by misusing the word "Band" to apply to a group of musicians.

What if you wanted to hire a "Band" and NOT an "Orchestra"?
If you placed an advertisement to hire a "Band," you will get thousands of applications from "Orchestra's" who only THINK they are a "Band" from misuse of the word for so long, it has become all encompassing.

This means if you want to advertise to hire a "Band," you would also have to pay to include additional wording describing what a "Band" is and also saying something like "Orchestra's" need not apply. You will still get applications from hundreds of "Orchestra's" simply because most of the musicians I've met, don't know the difference between a "Band" and an "Orchestra." SAD, very SAD...

But that is exactly what our Dictionaries are. How is a word used by the Common Folks! And they use the wrong words so often and for so long, the Dictionaries are forced to include the erroneous meanings as common.

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Re: A question

Postby Ice.Maiden » 11 Jul 2014, 13:58

It's included in this one Gary ....

http://oaadonline.oxfordlearnersdiction ... ary/band_1

Most dictionaries (modern) now break the word up into: Brass band, girl/boy band, marching band, etc., as well as list the other meanings, but you're right about people mis-using words, and not enough kids're taught how to use dictionaries and thesauruses.
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Re: A question

Postby pilvikki » 12 Jul 2014, 10:10


when I had my old 50s and 60s readers' digests, I loved looking up the meanings of words. just in the past few decades things have changed so much. take the word Impact. used to be a noun, now it's a verb. (which I spelled WORB! :lmao4: ) what about Proactive? or: "he keyfobbed the door open." WHAT????

nails on the chalk board.
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Re: A question

Postby Kellemora » 12 Jul 2014, 10:36

But you see WHAT they listed as #1 in the definitions.

I knew I would find this if I looked long enough.
I omitted all but the pertinent titles, such as Choir, Concert Band, Symphony Band, Military Band, etc.

Band: an ensemble of wind and percussion instruments of four or more players, including sections of rhythm, brass, and reeds, playing arrangements of jazz, popular dance music, etc.

Orchestra: a group of instrumentalists, especially one combining string, woodwind, brass, and percussion sections and playing classical or popular music.

Rock Band: an orchestra or orchestral ensemble of combined instruments, especially an orchestra containing a section of plucked string instruments, playing jazz, ragtime, hip-hop, popular or modern era music.

Difference between Band and Orchestra?
The difference between a band and an orchestra is that a band has no stringed instruments while an orchestra does.

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Re: A question

Postby Ice.Maiden » 12 Jul 2014, 12:14

Hmm, hello Gary.

I've only ever known "impact" to be used as a verb, noun and as an adjective - as in "impacted". The word can be used in several ways, but "keyfobbed the door open"??? LOL - that's a new one to me, although I understand how it's being used. I think we'll see these sort of anomalies creep into the English language. In fact, it has already.

Take "gross". It's now commonly used to express something distasteful, and not so much as to mean large, although a "gross of egg boxes" etc's still in use.

I find words fascinating. I used to pour through dictionaries when I was a child, finding new words to use in stories and so on. I used the word "paludal" when I was about 7, and my teacher thought it was marvellous! : )

As for bands, in the musical sense, well of course, the word now includes rock bands, pop bands, reggae bands and the rest of it, and each one includes the use of stringed instruments, so in a sense, the word's been changed to fit a description of a group of musicians. At the end of the day, the word's not actually used wrongly. A "band of men" now merely represents ANY group of men, whether in a music sense of not, and is, in fact, probably more commonly used these days to fit that particular group.
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Re: A question

Postby Kellemora » 13 Jul 2014, 11:25

Hi Icey
The trouble with using the wrong word or words to describe something, eventually adds to the confusion.
The word Band is only one example that causes confusion.

Another word that should be abolished from our language is the word FREE.
Darn near every con artist in the world uses the word FREE to describe something they are selling, and often grossly overpriced at that.
FREE means without charge, no cost to you.
If there is a CATCH, something you MUST pay for to get it, THEN it is NOT FREE...

You wouldn't believe the number of scam artists who call on the telephone to give you something for FREE.
Free burglar alarm, with Free installation, and Free delivery.
OK, send it over and install it.
You have to sign this Contract for one-thousand dollars a month for life first.
I thought you said it was FREE? one-thousand dollars a month for life is NOT FREE...

The other con is FREE DOWNLOAD. The item isn't FREE, only the download of something that does not work until you PAY for it.
If I bought an on-line electronic media item, it is UNDERSTOOD they will deliver it by Free Download.
I won't buy anything from a company who makes such stupid statements as Free Download. Simply because they must be con artists to use such terminology.

I do have the ability to BLOCK these telemarketers phone numbers, but even the selling of number blocking is in and of itself a scam. The end consumer, such as myself, will have to block anywhere from 1,000 to 100,000 phone numbers to stop a single telemarketing company, or over 20 million phone numbers to stop MLM type telemarketing organizations.
Most of the calls I receive are Illegal to start with. The very fact they called a number on the National Do Not Call List is illegal. But the list is meaningless as far as the law goes. There is no department of government enforcing the law.
This is great for telemarketers!
They obtain a list of KNOWN WORKING NUMBERS from the government for free.
Everyone who called to put their number on the Do Not Call List, is a Known Working Number, the telemarketers now have access too. And with nobody enforcing the law, they make good use of the list as a source of numbers to call.
We can thank our government for compiling this list of telemarketing numbers they can use!

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Re: A question

Postby Yogi » 13 Jul 2014, 17:14

I think you people have it backwards. A dictionary is like a newspaper that reports the news and does not create it. Common usage is what defines the meaning of a word. If you are not familiar with the current meaning, then by all means go to a dictionary and learn something. Where is it written that the common usage of a word cannot change nor be added to?

And, Icey, I'm sure you would know what happened if you suffered the impact from a meteor impacting your head. :lmao4:
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Re: A question

Postby Ice.Maiden » 13 Jul 2014, 17:23

Hi Gary.

You're right about nothing really being free, in the sense of the word. Of course, that changes if you offer a relative or friend something "for free", because you're giving them something out of the goodness of your heart and expecting no return, but "free" anything in advertising usually means a catch!

I did once send off for some free samples of various cosmetics and creams, which duly arrived, but the samples were minute and they were encouraging you to buy the full-size products, albeit with vouchers which entitled you to a very small amount off the full price! I never bothered, and surprisingly wasn't pestered by these firms.

The ones that come to you via the phone're totally annoying. A company making and selling blinds once rang up, saying that if so many blinds were bought, you got one free. Since they were very expensive anyway, I'm sure the cost of the freebie was added onto the purchase price of the rest. I said no thank you and put the phone down, but I no longer have these irritating calls come through to me, because only certain ones're put through to me. : )

Another one's when call centres phone up and try to engage you in conversation before the sales patter starts! LOL. So obvious what's coming, but out of the hundreds of calls which they make each day, there're going to be some gullible people who'll fall for it. So saying, not all ARE gullible. There might be some housebound person or one without internet use, who's really after what these companies're selling. Fair enough. The firms're only trying to sell their products, which straight advertising alone might not always work, but for most of us, these places which pester us, and especially when offering something for "free", have the opposite effect - in that we don't want to know!

We've been on the TPL (telephone preference list) and're ex-directory, but we've still had people get through in the past. They change their numbers regularly to escape being blocked, and it's surprising how we inadvertently might give our phone numbers away without realising where they might end up.

As you say, information's sold, and some numbers're still accessible and functional, so the advertisers can sometimes get through. Strangely, I've never had one come through on my mobile phone! Maybe it's because I hardly use it, or the fact that it's so pathetic and old (not a smart phone) that I'm not tracked in the way that other people are?

Going back to redundant words, yes, there're quite a few. I think it's a shame to let the old ones go in a way. I've got no time for text or street talk, and yet we've all got used to colloquial speech and slang, haven't we? I admit to using some abbreviations, such as LOL (which annoys some), but the shortened versions've crept into the workplace and everyday life. Examples're PAYG, PAYE, MOD, DOA and umpteen more.

I find words interesting. Hardly any of us use the correct meaning all of the time, but luckily we all KNOW what each other means. Mispronounced words sometimes irritate me unless they're used in fun, but what annoys one person, won't bother the next. I'm sure that we've all googled various words or checked on their spelling/pronunciation, but nothing beats going through a real paper dictionary, does it?

Hi Yogi - you pipped me to the post! :lol:

No, I doubt if I'd know what'd happened if I suffered an impact from a meteor impacting my head - I'd be dead! :lol:
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Re: A question

Postby Kellemora » 14 Jul 2014, 11:48

Well, it is a good thing our dictionaries are not based on the few words used in the south.

Back home, we had coaster wagons, garden carts, two-wheel carts, also called hand-trucks, motorcycles, cars, vans, trucks, flatbeds, moving vans, go-carts, shopping carts, shopping baskets, pallet carts, pallet jacks, tow trucks, box vans, step vans, baby buggies, baby strollers, strollers, skateboards, roller skates, etc. Each type of device had a name associated with it to avoid confusion of what you are talking about.

After I moved south, they only have ONE WORD to cover ALL of the above devices. BUGGY.

Now back home, if something was BUGGY, it was either drawn by a horse, or sprayed with insecticide, or sent to the repair shop.

Back home we had soda, pop, soda-pop, Pepsi, Coke, RC, 7-UP, etc. all the brand names by name.

Down south, they only have one word, COKE! And you can get any Flavor of COKE you want. They have Lemon-Lime Coke, Root Beer Coke, Dr. Pepper Coke, 7-UP Coke, and even PEPSI Coke at some places... Of course down on the street corner you can get Powdered Coke, with a FREE STRAW...

I can just imagine a police report after an accident. Buggy A hit the side of Buggy B, then left the scene of the accident. ALL POINTS BULLETIN, be on the LOOKOUT for a SILVER BUGGY.
Reports come rolling in: We found a Silver Buggy being pushed through WalMart, co-mingling with hundreds of other Silver Buggies to avoid detection. The front wheel was wobbling, indicating it was recently in an accident.
The speaker squawks again: We found another vehicle fitting your description. A Silver Buggy was seen over at the fairmount track climbing a dirt hill. Being the only Silver Buggy in the vicinity, I'll haul 'em in chief.
Chief: No you idiots, we are looking for a four-wheeled Silver Buggy, the kind of Buggy used on the roads. Dull Silver, not shiny Silver. You know, a Silver Buggy.

Why don't they just say they are looking for a Silver two-door Sedan with a big orange T on the side? Because nobody knows what a Sedan is down here and every vehicle has a big orange T on the side!!!

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Re: A question

Postby Ice.Maiden » 14 Jul 2014, 16:06

Of course down on the street corner you can get Powdered Coke, with a FREE STRAW...


:lmao1: Oh that really made me laugh!!

I think the word "buggy", which's an Americanism's only used over here to mean 2 things, basically - a flimsy pushchair (stroller) or as a golf buggy. I can't think of any other meaning for it right now, but that's reminded me of a word that's catching on from over the pond - strollers. We've always called them pushchairs until recently, but some now being sold under the "new" description.

Language changes constantly, but probably more rapidly than ever now.

As an aside, I was reading only today that a flood of similar experiences were sent in after someone said that although they were born and brought up in another country, after having spent 20 years in the UK, they've now lost the ability to converse in their native tongue. I thought that it sounded unusual, as surely their thoughts are in the language they grew up to know? It appears not. Lots of folk then wrote in to say that the same thing'd happened to them. Time spent living and working amongst people who speak a different language, apparently confuses the brain, and the mother tongue can be difficult to bring to mind - or forgotten completely! Some said they spoke half and half, which made others laugh, but I can't imagine myself to ever think in another language, let alone forget the English I was brought up with.
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Re: A question

Postby Kellemora » 15 Jul 2014, 10:11

In a way, you do it too Icey...

In one of your post responses to me, don't remember which one, you used the word "Lorry."

Not familiar with the word, I looked it up in a British dictionary, and still have no idea about what type of vehicle you were referring too. It has about the same meaning as "Buggy" does to a US southerner. Seems to cover almost everything.

It could be a Truck, a Van, a Flatbed Truck, a Stake Truck, a Cart on Wheels, a Cart on a Track, like a Mine Cart, it could mean a Cart used in a Factory, and Articulated Vehicle, a Flat Shopping Cart, a Warehouse Cart, a Truck for Heavy Loads, a Platform Truck, a Lift Truck, any Conveyance running on Rails, a Horse Drawn Wagon without sides, a Horse Drawn with sides and top, a towed container on wheels, a pushed container.
And finally, something dishonestly acquired. EG: Fell off the back of a Lorry.

Here, we vacuum carpets, with any brand of vacuum cleaner.
If I understand right, you guys Hoover them, regardless of the brand of vacuum used.
Much like the US southerners use the word COKE to describe any brand or flavor of soda. hi hi...
If you go into a store and order a COKE, anywhere except the south, they will bring you a COKE.
But in the south, they need more clarification. What flavor of COKE do you want? And it confuses them if you tell them you want a COKE COKE, like in CocaCola COKE.
It kills me when I go into a place that only has Pepsi products and they ask if I want a COKE. I can't help but remind them the DO NOT SELL COKE HERE... They will always snap back with "Honey, we have all Pepsi flavors of COKE..." Unbelievable! But True!

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Re: A question

Postby Ice.Maiden » 15 Jul 2014, 11:22

:lol:

I liked that!

Sorry - a lorry over here's a truck, Gary, but we'll use both words as in a lorry driver or a truck driver, although the former's been used since way back and "truck" seems to've crept in over more recent years. Basically, it's a unit with the bit on the back for transporting cargo. :P

[ img ]

That's where "Fell off the back of a lorry" came from, in that thieves'd target haulage lorries parked up in a lay-by or car park, and steal whatever was inside, then sell the goods off cheaply. So contraband goods which get sold off by those who've illegally gained them're known as goods which "came, or fell off the back of a lorry". The most popular thefts are from lorries carrying electrical goods - and cigarettes! It's getting more difficult now though, what with the vehicles having sophisticated security systems and cameras dotted around parking areas.

Yes - :lol: - we "hoover up". We DO say we're going to get the cleaner out, or we're going to vacuum the floor, but "to hoover's" become a verb, so it's a very common expression. I'm sure the company're delighted! :cool2:

Strange - we use Vax vacuum cleaners in our house. I'll sometimes say I need to get the "Vac" out, which's a cross between the 2 words!

I think that the British and Americans're very good at using abbreviations, and what you lot say today, 5 years down the line, we'll be copying! Maybe it's because the world's such a small place now. We're not dissimilar, so ideas, fashions, words - they all cross the ocean with ease and get adopted. Our style of music's crossed over to your shores, and vice versa. I love the deep south bluesy-type of stuff, and years after we'd got over the fad of punk rock, your kids took to it. It's still going, with the likes of rock bands such as Green Day (who're very good, so thanks America!).

I love you people. I have friends and relatives over there, but we still maintain our subtle differences. I think that's the way it SHOULD be. Like bonds with like, but we still need individuality, and this's where we sometimes get stumped by words that the other uses. It interests me.

Finally, I love the way your "pop's" called coke, no matter what it is! :lmao4:
Here, we have bottles of pop - be it cherry flavoured or lemonade. Coke - is Coke, and Pepsi's Pepsi, but other brands of it're just cola (and usually rubbish!).

We never call our pop - soda. :P
Soda's either soda water, which you add to drinks in a pub, or it's baking soda or bicarb, but it doesn't matter what you call it over in the US, because we understand what you mean anyway.

Oh dear. I think this discussion should be on a different forum, so I'll say goodbye for now and leave you with a home-grown item for discussion!

[ img ]
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Re: A question

Postby Kellemora » 16 Jul 2014, 08:56

Hope she doesn't snag a loose yarn end off that thing, or she will quickly find it diminishing.

One of my grandmothers wore something similar to what her mother wore.
It wouldn't be called a bra or corset.
More along the lines of halter top I guess.
Hanging on a clothes line, it looked more like a short bib apron.
I'm sure some of them were the top part of a pair of bib overalls.

I remember watching her iron clothes, and when she came to these, the would iron them flat first, then take the apron part, fold it under once, iron a crease, fold it under one more time and iron the creases again.
This left the strap that went around her back on the top of the folded part.
Then she would flop the bib part down over it to put it in the drawer.

I do know she put it on by slipping it up under her breasts, tying the strap around her back, then lifting the bib up and tying that behind her neck. Except on some that tied in front below her shoulder.

My mom used to harass her all the time, "MOTHER why don't you just wear a bra?"
"Blasted things are too uncomfortable for my liking." she would quip back.
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Re: A question

Postby Ice.Maiden » 17 Jul 2014, 18:09

:lol:

Good evening Gary. I think I know the sort of tops you're referring to, but there's not much support in fabric halter tops unless they're seamed (darted) or underwired round the cup area, but some women find ANYTHING in this vein uncomfortable, and prefer to go braless.

Unfortunately, this doesn't really help to keep the figure nice, but it's not the underwired area that does it. Bra manufacturers know that a wide band below the cups's what keeps everything in shape, but because they're not particularly attractive, many women fore-go the chance of premature drooping in favour of something which LOOKS pretty.

The more voluptuous a woman is, the more she should consider what type of bra she's wearing, such as ones with wide supporting shoulder straps and a back strap that meets properly. If it's too tight, she'll have bulges at the back and sides. The cups should also meet comfortably at the cleavage. If a bra's the wrong size, there'll be a gap between the skin and where the cups start, or a "spillage" occurs! :lol:

I have my bras fitted for me, and I've learnt a lot from the person who measures me. Too big, and a bra'll hang unevenly and show up under clothes. Too small and you get bulges back and front.

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Re: A question

Postby Kellemora » 18 Jul 2014, 11:16

I didn't describe what she wore very well.
Perhaps if I used other terminology?
Think of the part under the breasts more like a belt or thick strap that went around her body.
Nothing could slip out under it, but by itself, it gave no support.
Now attach a bib to the belt so it comes off the top edge of the belt.
I didn't get into a lot of detail about this part of the bib, but she did have a secondary flap sewed vertically partway up the center to keep her breast from touching together and sweating.
She really did hate how the bras of that era were made. Perhaps more modern styles would have been more to her liking. But I do know she preferred the strap around her neck over straps over the shoulder, and she could have tied or hooked hers either way.
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Re: A question

Postby Ice.Maiden » 18 Jul 2014, 15:57

I know the sort of thing you mean Gary, and indeed, halter-necked tops or bras CAN be more comfortable than wearing shoulder straps, because these can dig in if they're too narrow or too tight.

However, women these days have so much choice when it comes to lingerie, that we'll keep several different styles in, so that we can wear them with various clothes without the straps showing or looking out of place. Of course, you can get multi-way bras as well, which can be worn strapless, halter neck, normal or cross-over.
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Re: A question

Postby Kellemora » 19 Jul 2014, 11:41

No offense against the fair sex, but I would go crazy trying to figure out what to buy or wear.
Men have a much simpler selection of almost everything.
We may have a few different styles to choose from, but most often, we choose what our mothers bought for us while we were growing up. Boxers, Briefs, or Briefs with a pouch. T-shirt, sleeveless, v-neck, or straps. All in small, medium, or large, unless you go to tanker supply for x-large or larger.
All of these items fit only two shelves in 1/4 section of an aisle at the store.
While the similar items for women take up every shelf, for the full length of the shelves, in five or more aisles, hi hi...
Same way with men's footwear. One-half to a full aisle, if we are lucky.
Women's footwear, all the remaining aisles in the store are loaded to capacity.
And they still don't have what you are looking for, hi hi...
I know, my wives have drug me around to fifteen or twenty shoe stores looking for a pair of shoes, many times.

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