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SOPA

Postby pilvikki » 18 Jan 2012, 01:08


anyone know anything about this:


http://www.allegiancemusical.com/blog-entry/day-no-takei

i've had emails about censorship here and there, but i never know if i need to take them seriously or not. it appears to make no sense whatsoever...
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Re: SOPA

Postby Ice.Maiden » 18 Jan 2012, 05:15

I think it speaks for itself what SOPA'd like to do, but it's ridiculous. You wouldn't be able to advertise - or even discuss the make of something, in case it was seen as an infringement of copyright.

You couldn't enforce a violation of free speech like that - could you??!!
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Re: SOPA

Postby kg » 18 Jan 2012, 11:13


I'm absolutely amazed that Youtube isn't participating. Of all the sites, that would be the one site most affected by these laws. Of course, the government might not be so quick to shut Youtube down. I'm sure the public outcry would be huge and politicians know better than to arouse the publics ire, especially so close to election time.

But afterwards, all bets are off.
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Re: SOPA

Postby Yogi » 18 Jan 2012, 12:31

If you are trying to support your wife and four children off the royalties you get from patents and intellectual property, SOPA is critical to your survival. Laws are already in place protecting copyrighted material, and I have personally reminded several of you of those laws when I ask whether or not you obtained permission to publish certain material in our forums. YouTube and a plethora of bit torrent and music download sites are all liable to protect the intellectual property they deal in, but obviously they don't. They pass that onto the user of their service instead of doing anything proactive. The proposed SOPA/PIPA laws will give the government the power to take action if the pirates will not regulate themselves.

The opponents of SOPA point to places like China and Iran who have filtered Internet content for their own purposes. The claim is that our government (in the USA) will be granted that kind of authority if SOPA and/or PIPA are made into law. My advice to those people is to follow the existing laws and they won't be burdened with imposition from a higher authority. Self-enforcement, of course, would have a negative effect on business.
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Re: SOPA

Postby Ice.Maiden » 18 Jan 2012, 13:22

I'm sure we'll all be extra-vigilant on here though .. won't I? :shifty:
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Re: SOPA

Postby kg » 18 Jan 2012, 14:10


A very interesting perspective on SOPA and PIPA from LinkTV:

Boing Boing Editor: SOPA and PIPA Are 'Completely Ineffective'
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Re: SOPA

Postby pilvikki » 18 Jan 2012, 19:08


i understand your efforts in trying to keep us honest, but some websites don't do themselves any favours either; a written permission is only good provided you get a reply. after being ignored a few times...

and some ought to see the benefit of free advertising...?

if i'm showing icy a ranunculus, i'm not stealing art, i'm just showing the picture that best suits my purpose - and if you don't want anyone to see the picture, don't post it into the traffic.

then there is the music. i like 1 raffiti. i like 1 olivia newton-john, 1 straisand, a couple of eltons etc, but in order to get the one cut, i have to buy the whole disc. getting the works would end up costing a mint and yet i'd have to extract all those tunes and burn them onto a small section of a disc.

know where i'm going with this? i have no problem giving the artist her/his due, but personally i think the downloading each one for a small fee is more feasible that either having everything free or having to pay $20 a song...
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Re: SOPA

Postby Yogi » 19 Jan 2012, 10:20

This brew-ha-ha over piracy is to a large degree self-imposed. The Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) has been making the most noise, and it's even taking 12 year olds to court over illegal downloads. The laws we (in the USA) have in place are adequate enough to protect any artists, authors, and inventor's intellectual property rights, but they were written before the Internet became a necessity. RIAA and others have yet to come into this century with their policies, although I will give them credit for making a little effort to make distribution of individual works a little easier.

As a website we claim to not be violating any copyrighted works' protection because we are not using them for profit. We are allowed to show each other copyrighted material under the "fair use" clause in the copyright laws. That is our claim, but the owner of the works still has a right to be compensated for any reproductions or use of their creations. We can be challenged, but as Pilvikki will tell you, the owners often ignore us.

I don't feel any compassion for the likes of YouTube, Wikipedia, Flickr, or anybody else who is making a profit dealing with intellectual property. Google has in fact changed their policy at YouTube by absolving themselves from any responsibility for the videos on their website. They pass that responsibility onto the people doing the uploads. Well, if too much illegal activity is going on at YouTube, then they deserve to be policed by a higher authority or get into a different business.

It's messy, and the blood bath has yet to begin. The victims in all this intellectual property protection BS are the authors. They are often not paid, or paid pennies for their efforts. Ask any author of an e-book sold on Amazon how they feel about the Kindle to get an idea of what is happening. Microsoft is losing millions, if not billions, of dollars to people outside the USA using pirated copies of Windows. If you still think Wikipedia is a reference library and falls under the "fair use" clause as we claim to be doing, then you won't understand what SOPA or POPI is all about. I don't want the federal government in my face any more than it is right now, but I do want every creative genius to receive their just rewards.
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Re: SOPA

Postby pilvikki » 19 Jan 2012, 13:09


If you still think Wikipedia is a reference library and falls under the "fair use" clause as we claim to be doing, then you won't understand what SOPA or POPI is all about.


it's not? :shifty:

my sleep-deprived brain just stalled. i think i'll have a nap and try again later.
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Re: SOPA

Postby Silke » 21 Jan 2012, 04:24

...biggest problem by my understanding was the power to take down stuff because the site "didn't do enough to prevent" piracy and so on. It was all in the vague words which if interpretted by the right lawyer and judge can give them legal grounds to do what they want with the internet. america isn't famed for their self-restriction in using law for their own personal gain, and personally I think that puts too much power into too few hands.

You can't make somebody responsible for other peoples actions. Therefore you can't take the creators of a site to task for what their users do. Just as you can't sure the manufacter of a hammer because that hammer was used in a homocide.

SOPA/PIPA could have been written with the right intentions, but the posibilities of missuse therein is much, much greater than the gains one would have for it. It would have impacted the world - all of it.
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Re: SOPA

Postby pilvikki » 21 Jan 2012, 13:01


Well, if too much illegal activity is going on at YouTube, then they deserve to be policed by a higher authority


but when we talk about "higher authority" we can go from the church to the gestapo and anything in between.

could it not be set up so that if your speech on say, astrology is copied and not credited to You, someone could say "hey! that's yogi's work! i'll tell him so he can deal with it." and then you can either shrug or remove it or charge for it?

i think that was the idea with wiki, but now that they're crying poor, i don't quite understand what's gone wrong there.
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Re: SOPA

Postby Silke » 24 Jan 2012, 06:37

... I just don't think that any law which would make both me and yogi suffer for me copying copyrighted stuff and posting it here is fair. You do time for the crime you have committed, not what everyone else does.

You need accounts to put stuff out on the internet, or some way of identifying yourself. Going after people, person by person, is still possible under the law of today. No need to make it worse.
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Re: SOPA

Postby Yogi » 25 Jan 2012, 12:31

As is the case with just about everything, it's all about money.

The authors of the intellectual property deserve to be compensated for their efforts, and that is the bottom line. The problem is in the way intellectual property is distributed. It's like going to a grocery store where there are no checkout lanes and relying on the customers to put a payment in a box as they leave the shop. How long would that store remain in business under those conditions?

YouTube, and others, have signed agreements with film and recording companies to pay a blanket fee for distribution of what is allowed to be posted there. Bit Torrent companies do the same thing. Making the distributors of intellectual property take responsibility for paying royalties would be based on the number of downloads, which is easily tabulated. That's one solution, but just as those big buys don't want the responsibility, I don't want to have to pay royalties for anything that can be stolen from this web site either.

So what do you do when nobody wants to follow the rules? SOPA proposes getting the federal government involved to make disobeying the laws more costly. The argument stating that the government should not be allowed to determine such things is laughable because it comes from people who determined it's OK to steal protected property and publish it on the Internet for others to steal. It's not OK to be a pirate (well, unless you are co-administrator of a world class web site, or something ;) ).
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Re: SOPA

Postby kg » 25 Jan 2012, 14:45


I understand all that, let me tell you! You know I'm an aspiring author, and at some point I'd like others to read and appreciate my work. And if I can make money doing so, all the better! It would be more than annoying to me if I found my writings published under a different author's name.

Of course, I've taken steps to minimize the chance of that. I've only published one excerpt of my writings on the 'net, and the chapter that excerpt came from is going to have to be rewritten in any case.

The solution is simple; don't put anything on the Internet that you don't want others to rip off and republish/repost. Of course, you've mentioned one situation which would bypass those precautions:

Yogi wrote:So what do you do when nobody wants to follow the rules? SOPA proposes getting the federal government involved to make disobeying the laws more costly. The argument stating that the government should not be allowed to determine such things is laughable because it comes from people who determined it's OK to steal protected property and publish it on the Internet for others to steal. It's not OK to be a pirate (well, unless you are co-administrator of a world class web site, or something ;) ).


I would agree that protestations from those who think it OK to pirate property is laughable, but I have my own protestations, and I'm not one of that group. I'm firmly on the side of those whose users might inadvertently post copyrighted material to a site without knowing that it was pirated...I'm on your side!

I know how government works as well as you do. "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." Do I need to include credits? If S0PA were to pass, not providing credit to that quote might be enough for the government to take this site down. The quote is credited to Thomas Jefferson, BTW.

No matter the intent of legislation, someone, somewhere; a prosecuting attorney seeing dollar signs might take up the case and "interpret" his or her way to mis/abuse of that legislation. It has happened before and it will happen again.

There's a reason I included that particular Jefferson quote. We must exercise eternal vigilance in what power and legislation we, as the "titular bosses" of this country, allow our "representatives" to have. Even legislation and laws written with the best of intentions can and will be abused, either for financial gain or as a means of power and control over those we disagree with.

Everyone here likely has heard of the recent shutdown of the Megaupload site. This was all done under already existing laws against piracy. So do we now need even more legislation to do the same thing? Or is this a reach by the moneyed industry for even more power?

My opinion is that we don't need redundant legislation on top of even more redundant legislation to get the job done. The job is already being done by the existing legislation. SOPA is an attempt to gain even more power, and it offers nothing except the potential of abuse against those sites whose users unknowingly post pirated material, or a link to such.

It also opens up the potential of retribution against those site owners who piss off RIAA or others, or whose users do so. "Oh, is that what you think? Well, we'll go through your site and find something to use to shut your site down!" There are enough laws in place, and they obviously work. No need for layers upon layers of laws that present even further potential for abuse.

As an aspiring artist/author, that's my opinion on SOPA. If further legislation is needed, perhaps legislation is needed to require an expedient answer to requests for permission to repost copyrighted material, or links to such, by the copyright holders. As has been said, it's quite off-putting to request permission and be ignored. Say yes or say no, but say something!
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Re: SOPA

Postby Yogi » 25 Jan 2012, 15:29

The sad truth is that even if we let Big Brother police our Internet, they won't have the slightest influence in China, India, or the Russian Federation where your book is being sold, translated nonetheless, for about 15 cents a copy. I don't see a better alternative to SOPA or PIPA in the making, but I do agree with those who say the entire system of patents and copyrights is about 150 years behind the times. Change the methods instead of the policing of the current rules. I think there are people who agree with that approach, but reimplementation is unrealistic at this stage of the game.
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Re: SOPA

Postby kg » 26 Jan 2012, 20:03


Seems there is another problem in the mill that is touted to be even worse than either SOPA or PIPA. That is ACTA (the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement).

Here is a short (around 6 minute) video on the Agreement compiled on ACTA. It sort of seems to contain rather inflated claims (or are they?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=p_bERAf5KAg

They certainly address all my fears and concerns for potential abuse of such legislation. Of course, they present them as inevitable and in the worst-case scenario, but I would lay down good money that the realities would fall somewhere between the intent of the legislation and that worst-case scenario...likely closer to the latter.
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