Windows 10

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Windows 10

Postby Yogi » 01 Oct 2014, 11:26

Microsoft has given a briefing on it's next generation of operating system, WIndows 10. There will be no Windows 9. Expect to see it for sale next summer, but if you want to get some idea of what will be happening, check out the video. The video is all hype, but frankly, I'm excited.

The new OS from Microsoft will be a single package that fits all boxes - yes, they think one size will fit all. This approach is to make life easier for application developers who only have to make one program to work on all mobile, desktop, and server platforms. Two of the most interesting features shown in this demo is the availability of multiple work spaces and the ability to work with or without keyboards. In fact, Windows 10 will automatically sense if you have a keyboard or a touch screen and change the user interface appropriately.

The video is nearly 45 minutes long and you might not be THAT interested in what Windows 10 is all about. It was well worth my watching because it indicated to me that Microsoft can learn new tricks and change direction. If it happens the way they say it will, something awesome is about to happen.

WINDOWS 10: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfveyXCsiA8
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Re: Windows 10

Postby Kellemora » 01 Oct 2014, 12:48

Interesting video Yogi - Windows is starting to work more like LINUX every day, eh!

I see they brought back the menu and have now added Workspaces like Linux has had for eons.

What I didn't see was the ability to add an upper panel, or access to 50,000 plus free programs!
No worries, more and more Linux programs are being ported over for Windows users to enjoy.

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Windows 10 Evaluation

Postby Yogi » 08 Oct 2014, 09:47

And now, a few words about how it really works. OK, maybe more than a few.

Shortly after I made the above post I discovered from where to download the Windows Technical Preview in .iso format. It's nearly 4GB and took slightly under two hours to download. That is quicker than it would be to a normal hard drive because I'm now using my SSD for Windows. That drive is a blessing in many ways.

At any rate, It turns out that Windows 10 can be installed from an image and into a multi-boot environment. The alternative is to upgrade your current Windows OS, which I can't see as being a good idea. For one this is a beta test and secondly it will go away in April of 2015. At that time you will have to revert back to your old OS.

There has been a lot of negative hype about the EULA that comes with this Technical Review. Microsoft has asked all it's beta testers to allow it to collect any and all information about activities on your Windows 10 installation. They obviously have key loggers and access to anything you write, store, or visit on the Internet. While some people object to all this as an invasion of privacy and a very risky submission to a giant corporation, those are the same people who never read what they agreed to when they installed the Facebook app on their mobile device. Microsoft is doing no more, plus Microsoft will not be storing the data they collect beyond the end of the development cycle. They most certainly are not selling your personal information to increase their bottom line profits.

So, with that understood, I installed Windows Technical Preview on my laptop where it is isolated from my main computer and shares a single hard drive with a couple Linux distributions. Installation could not be easier and is similar to what I've experienced in Ubuntu. All the right drivers were there out of the box except for one, the HP Network Printer I happen to own. However, when I went to add the printer they found the drivers and downloaded them. I also have an NAS which is essentially a Linux server with Windows Shares. I clicked on the network icon and voila. My NAS was visible and all I needed to do was enter my log in credentials. Linux, which is a peer to peer connection, wants me to use Samba and even then it can't locate the NAS until I manually mount it using its IP address. I then have to make a shortcut so that I don't have to do this each time I access the drive.

Satisfied that all my peripherals were working fine, I then went Windows exploring.

[ img ]

After a few desktop modifications, installed my own wallpaper for example, and the installation of a few applications the standard desktop that resulted looked very familiar. "My Computer" is now called "ThisPC" but not much else is different about the desktop. This emphasizes a very important concept that Microsoft went out of its way to promote. They have embraced the idea of making this operating system (OS) a continuum. That means us folks migrating from Windows 7 will feel comfortable with what we see. The same OS, however, will display the familiar Windows 8 Metro interface along with its active charms in place of the desktop. Windows now knows what you have and will show you what you need to be happy. The thing about this is that the changes are made on the fly. If I have a tablet with a touch screen, for example, I'll get the charms. When I dock the tablet and a keyboard suddenly is added to the system, the user interface changes to accommodate the keyboard and does away with the lucky charms. While this is all cool, I only have experience with a keyboard and cannot report to you how well the classic Metro interface works.

[ img ]

After using the default desktop for a couple days, and having thoughts of Ubuntu's Unity in mind, I relocated the taskbar to the left margin. If I were a purist, I could add all those other icons to the left handed taskbar so that it really looked more like Unity, but this is Windows after all. I didn't want to get carried away.

That icon under the magnifying glass is a totally radical idea for Microsoft. Clicking it brings up what they call "task view" which is just a virtual desktop that Linux was born with. Windows Task View works pretty much the same as it's Linux cousin and might be a little easier to generate new desktops, depending on which version of Linux you are currently using. At any rate, I see this as a brilliant move for Microsoft. A bit late in the game to go this route, but at least it shows they are serious about making life better for us real computer users.

As long as I'm comparing Windows to Linux, the command window has taken a turn for the better too. This is a subtle change but one us more advanced users will appreciate. The command window is like the terminal window in Linux and works pretty much the same way. However, copy and paste has never worked with keyboard shortcuts in the X-Term world. In Windows all I need do is highlight that complicated file name in the directory listing, hit ctrl+c and move it to the command line with a ctrl+v. No more drop down windows to deal with. PLUS, anything I copy from the command window can be pasted into the normal Windows desktop using the same keyboard shortcuts. I'm not sure that is even possible in Linux, but if it is it certainly isn't available using keyboard shortcuts.

The buzz on the street is about how Microsoft made a concession to it's disgruntled users and returned the "start" button to the desktop. Well, that is true, but any similarities to reality stop there. This is what you get when you click the re-placed Start button:

[ img ]

Of course, if you leave the taskbar on the bottom of the screen, this mish mosh appears in the lower left corner instead of the upper left corner seen in my screen shot. While it looks incredibly messy, this is just one more indication of the continuum idea Microsoft has settled on. What we have now is a combination of old school start menus and Metro UI. While it's confusing to the eye of us old timers, it is a blessing for developers. The mix and match operating system here is a one size fits all idea. As a developer you make your apps work in one environment only and it is guaranteed to display correctly on your smart phone, on your tablet, on your laptop, and on your desktop.

After working with this eye sore for a few days, it turns out to be no different than the old style start menu. The frequently used programs now can be made into charms that are very customizable. In essence all Microsoft did was replace the links you can pin to your old start menu with icons. I guess this works well for mobile devices, but us desktop users are scratching our heads.

There is much more to come as the release date approaches. What we have to evaluate is a watered down version with a few rough edges on the GUI's. l am certain it will look a lot nicer in the future. Perhaps the coolest part of this beta test is that I have a direct line to Microsoft where I can tell them what I like, don't like, and what is broken. They will even listen to new ideas I might have. I don't expect to see any of Yogi's ideas in Windows 10, but it is awesome to think I do have an input.
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Re: Windows 10

Postby Kellemora » 08 Oct 2014, 10:07

Hi Yogi

Looks like Windows is coming a long forward, and integrating the things users prefer, in a way they want them.
This is cool, and might keep a few from migrating to Linux, which most Windows users don't like anyhow.

As far as cut n paste in Terminal, it depends on which desktop you are using.
I don't think you can copy a code from a website, and paste it in any terminal except the Gnome version, XFCE and other desktops don't allow this. That being said, normally you can't go straight from a website to Terminal with a cut n paste, you have to paste first to Gedit to remove hidden stuff in the text, then copy it from Gedit to Terminal.
I know this for certain, because I keep a Gedit file with my most used terminal commands, and some of them are quite long.

I still have to fall back on Windows for a few things.
Since lightning took out all of my computers, and I learned I could not boot Windows from Drive E, it must be the C Drive. My old install from the fried computer wouldn't work. My first partition on the new drive was still empty, I tried doing a clone but it failed. So I reinstalled Windows XP Pro MCE, had to register it, then get the 2 hours of downloads to update the darn thing. Then I had to install the Printers, then msOffice, in order to print some proprietary files I need in their original doc format.
I still cannot get my printers to work right since moving up to Debian 7. Have the same problem with Mint Mate and Ubuntu 14.04. All of my printers always worked perfectly in Debian 6 and Ubuntu 8.04. So they changed something.
I also have problems with FLASH in Google Chrome, so rolled back to GC version 36. I do have one computer now I use for testing. GC version 37 destroyed Flash, and the latest version 38 which came out a couple of days ago, still destroys Flash.
So I won't allow GC to upgrade on my other computers.

Windows 10 looks like it may be a winner!
I wonder if in the data they collect, if they also collect the text you type in a word processor? This could be lethal!

Thanks for the Excellent Review and Wonderful presentation.!

TTUL
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Cloud Computing

Postby Yogi » 08 Oct 2014, 10:26

Lest you think I'm prematurely singing the praises of Microsoft's newest brain child, I want to confess that this old dog has a hard time learning new tricks. But I do try. The continuum thinking behind Windows 10 brings Microsoft into the mobile game well after it's competitors have locked down the market. There are many reasons why Microsoft is a follower instead of leader in this new way of computing world. I think their greatest liability is what was their greatest asset only a few years ago. Microsoft desktops dominated the computing world for decades. They have a tremendous infrastructure based on workstation style of computing. The new world of mobile (and wearable) computing forced Microsoft to make a tough decision. They had to decide how to maintain their dominant role in an obsolete environment. Obviously there was a lot of hesitation and Apple along with Google took over where Microsoft choked. It remains to be seen if Microsoft can deal with the new way people use computers, but Windows 10 is a step in the right direction.

The key to success in the mobile world is "the cloud." The cloud is the common connection between everything that is a personal computer. In fact many of us have more than one mobile device in the form of a smart phone, a tablet, and possibly an old laptop too. Us really old dogs have desktops as well. The way to keep all these devices in sync is through the cloud. Windows 10 guarantees that all your devices with the new OS will be locked into each other via it's OneDrive Cloud storage. All your computer settings, personal information, and activity history is put onto Microsoft's OneDrive so that it can be shared among all your devices.

One of the interesting caveats with OneDrive is the way office applications are incorporated into Microsoft's new OS. All the Office apps we are familiar with are now available free from the cloud. Like Google Docs, the free versions are not as flexible and as complete as the full blown versions, which you can now purchase for a monthly subscription fee. However you use Office, its residence in the cloud allows for collaboration in ways that have not been possible before OneDrive. Well, not with Microsoft software anyway.

The glitch in all this is what it always has been. Anything you do on your computer is being stored out in the cloud where it may be vulnerable or not available when you need it most. I think that's an issue which will become less important as more and more people migrate to cloud computing and security becomes better. For now I'm skeptical. But, I see the writing on the wall. Even Microsoft has finally seen it.
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Re: Windows 10

Postby Yogi » 08 Oct 2014, 10:41

Kellemora wrote:Windows 10 looks like it may be a winner!
I wonder if in the data they collect, if they also collect the text you type in a word processor? This could be lethal!


You voice a concern that I have seen elsewhere because the way the EULA is written suggests that Microsoft can record everything you enter from an input device. They claim it will be for troubleshooting and improvement of software only, and imply that all that information will be trashed once the product is out of beta. You got to be asking yourself, "Do I trust Microsoft to keep their word ... ?"

My primary exposure to Linux is Debian 6 and Ubuntu (flavor of the day). I've always had problems with exchanging data between the desktop and the command line window. Fortunately I've not had a need to do that very often. I'm sure there are tricks in Linux that I have not learned.

One of the beautiful things about Windows 7 Ultimate is that it has a native compiler available for anyone with the brain cells to use it. The idea is to take any Linux source code and compile it to run in Windows 7. That means I could run something like g-parted in the native Windows environment if I were clever enough to use a compiler. I've not seen any suggestions anywhere that Windows 10 will have such capabilities, but I think it would be the ultimate OS if it did.
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Re: Windows 10

Postby pilvikki » 08 Oct 2014, 15:04


thanks for the great review!

i'm now running 8.1 and am anything but happy with it, so I hope 10 will be an improvement.

actually, the 8 wasn't bad at all, but then along came 8.1 and screwed some things up while fixing others. I've been reading up on how to fix the .1 problem, but am too chicken to dive into it as they all appear different. whenever I try fixing something I tend to scramble something else.
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Re: Windows 10

Postby Kellemora » 09 Oct 2014, 10:51

Hi Yogi

I think every system has its separate ways of doing things.
Had something come up yesterday that took me a while to figure out.
After a clean install of Debian 7 on the used computer I bought, plus my brand new one, after I finally got it back.
I had no problem accessing all of my computers through the network and nabbing the files I needed.
Could save files create folders on the other computers, no problem.

I went to share a folder and found I did not have sharing (samba) loaded. What the heck, how was everything working without it? I have no idea, but it was working just fine.

Installed Samba, Nautilus-share, and Gnome-System-Tools, activated Sambashare in users and groups to give myself permission to create a shared folder. Then still had to run chmod. I cheated and copied the /etc/samba folder to the new computers from an old drive. But still had to create the sambashare.

I do realize in Ubuntu, Mint, and of course Windows, all of this is done for you. Since Debian installs nothing from the git-go, which is why it is so fast, stable, and lightweight. Which is why Ubuntu, Mint, and others used Debian as their base.

In any case, setting all of this up was easy, since I had all the commands I needed saved in a gedit document. I just had to cut n paste to the terminal window. You can use Ctrl-C to copy from gedit after highlighting the line. But you have to use your mouse and right click then select paste to add it to terminal, Ctrl-V does not work in terminal.
I can move some system folders as Root to a new computer, like those in /etc, but generated files in /var/lib/ won't work if moved, and many files say they can't be moved, permission denied, which means permission denied even to Root.

Which makes me ask. How can cloning one drive to another work if there are files that cannot be moved even by root?
Interesting thought eh!

I had a friend over at my house the other day. I got out my little netbook to show him something, which I would display on our TV. While it was booting up, I connected a Standard Size keyboard, a Mouse, and the HDMI cable to the TV. He starts roaring with laughter. What's so funny? Your keyboard is twice the size of your computer!
Yeah, I know, wouldn't it be nice if they just built a computer into a keyboard.
Um, they do, it's called a laptop.
I can't stand a laptops flat keyboard and multi-function keys, and that stupid touch-pad mouse jumping all over the place.
Which got me to thinking. If they can make a small cell phone do everything a computer can do, only slower of course.
Why doesn't someone make a computer inside a standard keyboard? Maybe someone does already? But it would make more sense than these friggin' useless laptops everyone carries around.
I don't know how people keep from going insane trying to get anything useful done on them.

TTUL
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Re: Windows 10

Postby Ice.Maiden » 09 Oct 2014, 19:07

Thank you Yogi. I understand bits of what you've said, and some bits I didn't, but can I just say something quickly - I love your wallpaper! : )
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Re: Windows 10

Postby Yogi » 10 Oct 2014, 08:10

As you might have gathered, I have more than one computer and each one has more than one operating system. Windows on that laptop in the screenshots is just one of several systems at my disposal. Each individual operating system has a wallpaper unique from the rest so that I can easily tell what it is I'm looking at. I love to use pictures of nature at its best, or astronomical pictures of outer space. It turns out there is an app in the Windows store that deals with wallpaper. I installed the app and picked a photograph from there just to see how it all works. Usually I just Google something.
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Re: Windows 10

Postby Yogi » 10 Oct 2014, 08:31

Gary - I can empathize with your feelings about laptops because also like you I am a decent typist. The keyboards on laptops are not made for guys like us. The sad reality is that computer manufacturers do not come by my place nor yours to ask us what we would like to see in the next generation computer. In fact the manufacturers are typically behind the curve of how users are now doing their computing. When laptops were first introduced they filled an immediate need for students and business people who needed a portable computer to be more productive. You and I are not part of that demographic, so we don't count.

The world of smart mobile devices is just the beginning phase of a sea change. People are starting to use and need different things than were available when you and I took an interest in all this high tech. Even if we stay with what we have, simply because it works well, the world around us is changing at breakneck speed. Our perfectly fine desktops will have no place to go in the near future. This world is changing so fast that not even Microsoft knew how to respond. They are coming to the game late and this is a life or death struggle for their company. If an outfit like Microsoft missed the changes in computing happening in their own back yard, what chance do guys like you and I have to get what we want?

This bit about Microsoft's attempt to play catchup also tells me that it 's not the big corporations driving the market. It's the other way around. Believe it or not.
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Re: Windows 10

Postby Kellemora » 10 Oct 2014, 12:57

Hi Yogi

Yeppers!

I posted a bit about Android moving to a desktop OS, hoping to capture the cell phone users need for something they are familiar with on larger devices, like laptops and desktops.

It's almost the opposite of Windows trying to get into the cell phone market.
Look around you. Everyone has their nose stuck in a cell phone these days, and the cell phones are getting bigger and bigger to cram everything on the screen.
They are used to how their cell phone works, after all, they use it almost all day as it is.
Android is hoping having an OS that works almost identical to their cell phone, they will capture the XP users as XP is phased out.
Rather than changing how things work, they are in a way doing like Windows did, keep things familiar for years.
Vista started Windows on a downhill slide, and now they are listening and returning to what works with Windows 10.
What everyone is already using their cell phones for, will be easier, like having a larger screen and an OS they are already using and familiar with.
Currently, the Android OS is at the sink or swim decision point. They have approached hardware vendors, so it will either be a go or a no go now.

I had to convert several images to a fixed size for a website. They provided the program for doing this. It gave me a good chance to see if there was a difference between Debian, Mint, and Ubuntu on handling the same program for a massive job.
Because the batches of images could have variations, I used the exact same batch of images in each OS to compare.

I hate to say this, but Ubuntu came in dead last. Even after I gave it two extra restarts, since it crashed twice. Neither Mint nor Debian crashed while running the program.

I downloaded the input image folder and created the output image folder as directed on sdb/3. Then before my test, I rebooted the computer and waited five minutes before starting the program.
I used Debian 7 first. Downloaded the program, waited five minutes, and let it run. Total time from start to finish was 9:23:16. That's 9 minutes not hours. The program display shows running time.
I moved the contents of the output folder to another folder, so the original output folder location was unchanged. Then rebooted the computer into Linux Mint Mate. Downloaded the program folder, waited five minutes, and let it run. Total time from start to finish was 12:18:40. Again, 12 minutes not hours.
Like above, I cleared the output folder, rebooted into Ubuntu 14.04. Downloaded the program folder, waited five minutes, and ran the program. It ran for about 3 minutes then the screen went black. The system hung. Had to do a cold reboot and start over. The second time it ran for close to 8 minutes before crashing. I thought maybe running for so long, the computer was overheating or something, so shut down and went to dinner. Rebooted when I came back, waited about 7 minutes before running the program.
Rather than running continuous as it did on Debian or Mint, it would run several images, then pause for a bit, then start again and do some more, then pause for a bit. Total time from start to finish was 32:41:16.
While the machine was hot from doing this, I rebooted back into Debian and reran the program again in Debian. Total Time 9:31:18, which is very close to the first run in Debian.
Mint and Ubuntu are out of the box installs. Debian I've added all the things I normally use.
I have no idea what caused Ubuntu to crash, the sizing program does not use graphics to do its thing. Or doesn't appear to use any graphical program I should say. All that appears on the screen is a white box which shows the name of the image path and filename in the top line. The output path and filename in the second line, and a bar that moves as the image size is converted. This runs fairly fast, like watching grsync's bar for each file. When it completes it says Completed in xx:xx:xx:xx, the first two xx's are 00: because none of the image folders took an hour to do.

I probably won't get a chance to play with Ubuntu again until next week sometime. I'm curious as to what caused it to crash.

TTUL
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