Linux vs Windows (Former MOD)

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Linux vs Windows (Former MOD)

Postby Yogi » 08 Jan 2013, 09:20

Do you feel like you're stuck on the outside while all the cool stuff is inside?
Then you're probably a loner. Or a fridge magnet.



EDITOR'S NOTE:
This topic was originally posted as a Message Of the Day. As sometimes happens, the subject shifted to something more interesting. In this case the shift was to a discussion of computer operating systems. Some salient points are being made and that prompted me to move the topic to a more permanent and appropriate home.
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Re: Message Of the Day

Postby Kellemora » 08 Jan 2013, 12:34

I'm the lone one on the inside with all the cool stuff, and everyone was peering through the glass, wishing they were in here too!

Then somebody picked up the ball, giving it a hard shake, and it was nothing but snow everywhere.
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Re: Message Of the Day

Postby pilvikki » 09 Jan 2013, 02:56


makes it really hard to see, eh, gary...?
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Re: Message Of the Day

Postby Kellemora » 09 Jan 2013, 11:20

You would laugh if you saw where I spend over 12 hours a day!

Maybe not? My office is nicer than most folks master bedrooms!
Albeit, much more cluttered, hi hi.....

I have a glass exterior mandoor on my garage, so anyone can look in and see a corridor that leads to my office door.
My office door has the door handle removed, so from my desk across the room, I can glance at the 6-panel door, tilt forward over my desk a tad and peer through the hole.
I can tell if someone is at the garage door, in the yard, or at the back door of my house, without having to get up to go have a look see.

I have all of my cool stuff in my office.
Why not? That is where I live when I'm awake!

A neighbor who is always borrowing things from me, never bothers me when I'm writing anymore. He just goes by the east window and waves. He also places a chunk of plastic on the window ledge to let me know he borrowed something, sets it down on a umbrella table when he returns it. Sometimes, if he needs to ask me something, he will stand outside the window looking in, and not tap on the glass until he sees I'm not typing. Perhaps I lean back or pick up something, then he tap, tap, taps on the glass.

As always, when he does come around to the door to come in. His first words are "Don't know how you can stand sitting in this hot room all day." I usually get him back by saying, don't know how you can stand being out in the rain and cold all day. I keep my office between 77 and 79. And that is with the AC running in the dead of winter.
It's not so bad now that I've reduced the number of computers in here. Used to have 8 of them running 24/7, so it was like a sauna in here. I've cut back to 5 computers in the office and two 2 in the house.

One neighbor calls me "the fish in the tank" and another says "he's always in the dog-house." I just tell folks, my wife stores me in the garage during the day, so I don't mess up her house. In any case, everyone knows where to find me, just look in the windowed box in the garage, he's a permanent fixture there!

TTUL
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Re: Message Of the Day

Postby pilvikki » 09 Jan 2013, 16:18


5? what on earth do you need 5 for, all for you? + the 2 in the house... :shock:

we have 4 in here - 3 in the livingroom and one in the kitchen. the only reason they're crammed in here is because the wi-fi doesn't seem go through the 2-3' walls. still, one's used for TV watching so it doesn't really count; one's for my use, the others for the kids.

my ex will show up next week and i might have to invest in an antenna to get mine out of here... sure as hell don't feel like having to p/w it, but that would be the only way to keep his grubby paws off it. he doesn't listen too well...
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Re: Message Of the Day

Postby Kellemora » 10 Jan 2013, 10:31

I HAVE been cutting down on the number of computers, since I switched to Linux and have several desktops on each one.
However, convenience is the main reason for the KVM's and Monitors.

When I'm working, I have three computers active. One is connected to work to display what I'm working from, the second is connected to work to display what I'm adding, correcting or removing. And the third is on-line to research data, either at work or on the web somewhere.

In the corner, on another desk is a computer that is not connected to the internet, it is used for my accounting and a few other hobby items, like the families genealogy, and maintenance of our thousands of photo's.

The two in the house (actually their or more down there, the frau's and like you, one for the TV), one is used for receiving my redundant back-ups and forwarding them to an outstate storage facility. It's set up to do it's own thing on a schedule.
The other is for when I'm down at the house and want to do something on-line or off-line.
I often wake up during the night with an idea to big to jot down with paper and pencil, so I type it up on the pooter and get back to bed. If I don't, I can never fall back asleep for thinking about it all night.

And then I have this one, I use for connecting to web sites. It has nothing in it, other than the OS and a few web browsers. I keep it isolated from my other computers. It is in its own workgroup, and was run through a separate router, until recently.

I usually keep a computer until it dies, even if I have added new ones. However, the frau insisted I get rid of the ones I never used anymore. And sure a shootin', as soon as I did, I needed some old ones again. This actually made me study and learn of some more features of Linux. Using Virtual Box, I CAN run Windoze 3.11, 95, 98, CE, ME, XP and upwards, and regain access to all of my old stuff from days of yore.

The more I learn how to use Linux, the least amount of computers it takes to get the same job done.

I can actually get by with only three computers now. So the rest are just still here for convenience of having them do their things unattended.

TTUL
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Re: Message Of the Day

Postby pilvikki » 10 Jan 2013, 13:29


what about using dual screens? wouldn't that be more convenient?

i'd love to go linux, but know squat about it....
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Re: Message Of the Day

Postby Kellemora » 11 Jan 2013, 10:38

Dual, triple or more screens would be great. The cost of the video cards to do that can be prohibitive though.

The first few times I tried Linux, I didn't understand it, mainly because it was just for geeks back then.

Today, Linux is actually easier to use than Windows, if you use a packaged turn-key Distro.

I was lucky! When I decided to go back to Linux, Ubuntu version 8.04 was easier to install and use than Windows, completely turn-key, no knowledge of computers really needed. Just stick the CD in the tray and hit Install.
In my opinion, Ubuntu has gone steadily downhill ever since. 10.04 gave me all kinds of problems, and 12.04 tried turning my computer into a DumbPhone. That was easily changed to a different desktop, I switched it from Unity to Gnome. It may not be the best choice but I like it.

I installed Debian on another computer. Debian is NOT turn-key, you have to install every little dependency yourself. Pain in the Arse to say the least. But on the bright side, it works and works well, better than Ubuntu.

My next install will be Linux MINT, I just haven't decided on which Desktop to use with it yet. Although they are easily changed at any time, I want to pick the package to see how well it installs and runs, as I have many friends wanting to try Linux. And I can't in all honesty recommend Ubuntu since they turned tail on us.

Linux MINT is based on Ubuntu, but without the added spyware that Ubuntu has added, making them as undesirable as Windows 8.

Besides Debian based Distro's like Ubuntu and Mint, there are also Red Hat based Distro's like CentOS and Fedora. Plus many other versions of Linux, Like Suse, Magellan, and so many others, I can't keep track of them all.
I prefer Debian based Distro's, even though I used Red Hat based for a long time. Things are just much easier to do in a Debian based Distro.

FWIW: Most of the better Linux Distro's CAN be run from a CD without changing anything at all on your computer. They run slower of course, but LIVE CD's let you try out Distro's before installing them. Mainly to see if the drivers for your hardware are available with them. Knoppix is a great little Live CD to keep on hand all the time, regardless of what Distro you do run.

To keep Windows on your system, you have to shrink it to a smaller partition, which opens a partition up to install Linux, and make your computer dual-boot. This way you can boot into either Windows or Linux when you turn on the computer.

For me, it's easier just to wipe a hard drive, or start with a new hard drive and partition it into 5 or 6 partitions, install Windows on the first partition, and other Distro's on other partitions. I used to use one partition for /home, because it was highly recommended, but personally had to many problems with a separate /home partition, so reverted back to keeping a copy of /home in the Distro's partition, one for each Distro.

Of course, now, I get quite a bit more complicated, running a base OS and everything else is placed in Virtual Machines, which makes for fast and simple restore or moving to another computer.

Even though Linux has a wonderful on-line support community, much better than anything for Windows. It still helps to have a geek around, or know one who can work with you, just in case things don't go just right. Computers are fickle!

TTUL
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Re: Message Of the Day

Postby pilvikki » 11 Jan 2013, 16:24


ok, now i know why i don't have linux... no way could i keep all that straight...

pity.
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Re: Message Of the Day

Postby Yogi » 12 Jan 2013, 11:48

My sentiments, exactly. LOL
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Re: Message Of the Day

Postby Kellemora » 12 Jan 2013, 11:57

Easier to keep things straight on Linux than it ever was on the Doze!

Almost everything associated with Linux, even simple Word Processors, use Common Logic over the nonsense you find in Windoze programs.

Take for example msWORD.
You want to do a simple Formatting operation to the page or pages you are working on.
Where do you go to do this? Under Formatting Operations?
NO, in msWORD you must got to FILE SYSTEM Operations!
WHY did they put it there? Formatting a Page has NOTHING to do with the File System!

You just don't remember HOW HARD it was to figure out where Mickey$oft HID the commands you needed.
By trial and error you eventually Found them and Memorized where they are.

OK, so you use a Linux based Word Processor and go to change a Page Format, and where do you look?
Out of habit you will look under FILE OPERATIONS, a place it NEVER belonged in the first place.
So to YOU, Linux is CONFUSING. Why? Only because you are looking in the WRONG PLACE for something out of Habit from having to look in All the Wrong Places.

If you want to perform a Formatting Operation in a Word Processor designed for Linux, you look in the Most Logical Place, under Formatting Operations, NOT under FILE SYSTEMS, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with Formatting.

In order to use Linux most effectively, you have to FORGET all the BAD HABITS you had to learn in order to use the DOZE.....
Stop and think LOGICALLY and you'll find what you need. Right where YOU would have put it, if YOU designed the program!

Although it is hard to find someone these days who has never used a computer before, there are still a few out there.

I've seen a few experiments where several computers were placed in daycare center of 6 to 8 year old kids (1st through 3rd grade) for an entire month.
Eight each of Windows, Mac and Linux (in this case it was Red Hat Linux).
These were all standard installs, as you would get from the factory.
Plus they added "like kind" packages of children's program on each computer.
The test sorta backfired for Linux, who sponsored the test, as the majority of kids took to the Mac computers first, and the overflow went to Linux. They quickly learned, on their own, they didn't really like the Windows computers.

Using only the third graders, they repeated the test for an additional two weeks.
Using the same kids already familiar with the computers.
They were instructed to perform these following tasks on each type of computer first.
Then they would get the same assignments and be graded upon them.

The assignments were similar to the following.

Draw a Picture (using simple programs like Paint).
Write one Letter to their Teacher and another to their Parents (using a simple text editor like Word Pad).
Using a web browser of their choice, find and bookmark a wiki on coloring books and crayons, and find a web site discussing their their favorite pets.
Make a Folder and place into the folder, the Picture they painted, and the two Letters they wrote.

On the day of the timed and graded test, all but one of the kids made a quick dash for the Linux computers. Only one of the kids preferred the Mac. Not a single 3rd grader wanted to use the Windows computers.
Why?
Some of the responses were:
To Slow!
To Hard to find things on!
Couldn't do what I wanted to do! (This was the child that preferred the Mac's Painting Program).

About the Linux machines:
Why did you chose this machine for your test?
Everything was easy to find!
It just works better!
I don't know, other than it had more things I could do on it. (Like what?) You know, everything, more stuff to help me.
One kid's simple response. It just cool!

I wish I could find that original report, it was a hilarious read.

TTUL
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Re: Message Of the Day

Postby pilvikki » 12 Jan 2013, 13:06


must be logical as it was developed by a finn...? :lol:

nevertheless, i see what you mean.

i'm a completely dimwit and since they went and newandimproved win98 to totally screw my head on backwards, i mean, could they not have at least put everything in alphabetical order? i can't find a damn thing now... so i won't have much to unlearn.

so, what would you recommend then? do i buy a program on line and if so, where and which one? do i need more then one?
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Re: Message Of the Day

Postby Yogi » 13 Jan 2013, 10:09

I remember the day when you (Pilvikki) decided to cross over to Linux. After a short while you gave up and settled into Windows. Same thing happened with Bill (Van). Things have changed since you did that, but I'm here to tell you as an experienced computer user that Macs's OSX is the easiest and most user friendly operating system generally available. Windows is the most prolific and thus the most supported. Linux is a niche market operating system used by less than 1.5% of the people in the world. A vast majority of that 1.5% are highly educated system administrators running servers, not desktops or laptops.

If you carefully read what Gary is saying you will note that he is talking about applications, not operating systems. My personal experience with Linux applications is that they are convoluted and not well integrated into the operating system. It's often necessary to use the shell (command line) and edit a configuration file just to make them work. This is due to the intrinsic "open source" nature of Linux wherein everybody and their kid brother can put together a distribution of packages and call it an operating system. It may or may not be fully functional, but that is irrelevant to the Linux cult. It's free, and most of all, it's not Windows. To be honest, I have to be suspicious of anyone who favors a minority operating system just because it's not what the rest of the world is using. Then again, I too may be in the minority.
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Re: Message Of the Day

Postby pilvikki » 13 Jan 2013, 13:27


oh i remember now... i didn't actually get the disc to work so i never got to take it for a test run...
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Re: Message Of the Day

Postby Kellemora » 14 Jan 2013, 11:56

Misleading comments Yogi.............

462 of the worlds TOP 500 Fastest Computing Systems run Linux.........
Most major corporations run Linux.
Almost every web site, and web hosts run Linux.
Besides the Government and the US Postal Service switching to Linux....
Most of the World runs on Linux.
Novel, GOOGLE, IBM, Panasonic, Virgin America, Cisco, Conoco/Phillips, Omaha Steaks, AMAZON.COM, Peugeot, Wikipedia, The New York Stock Exchange, Burlington Coat Factory, Raymour and Flannigan, Tommy Hilfiger, Toyota and Travelocity, to name a few.
What about Devices?
Sony Playstation 3, The underlying systems of most Netbooks, cars, mobile devices, appliances, both large and small, etc.
Massive Scale users, such as CERN, Internet Archive, and IBM's idataplex center in Toronto.
Android, Nokia, and even HP's Web OS, are all LINUX.......

Other than in the dwindling home desktop market, Linux Dominates the WORLD and in nearly every aspect of life.
Almost everything you use, touch, access or drive, is powered by LINUX........

Even the USPS who stuck with Windows for decades, finally saw the LIGHT and Switched to Linux! They have over 900 Linux CLUSTERS across the United States for sorting the nations bulk mail.

And Dig This: Even Micro$oft runs LINUX on 60% of their Mainframe Servers! (Source: Steve Ballmer, CEO Microsoft Corp.)

91% of the worlds supercomputers run Linux,
vs only 1.0% using Windows HPC.........

For a very simple reason:
People who KNOW computers, run LINUX!
Those who only PLAY with a toy computer, run WinDoze and are happy with malware, virus attacks, and paying royalties to do so.

TTUL
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Re: Message Of the Day

Postby Yogi » 18 Jan 2013, 16:24

Kellemora wrote:Misleading comments Yogi.............
...
...
...
Other than in the dwindling home desktop market, Linux Dominates the WORLD and in nearly every aspect of life.
Almost everything you use, touch, access or drive, is powered by LINUX........


Gary - we have gone through this exercise before and I don't expect you to change your perceptions of anything. However, the link provided below shows Linux to be 1.27% of the global installs of operating systems. Linux does dominate certain niche markets, but their numbers are extremely low. Even if you want to pervert the numbers and say everything that is not Windows is Linux in some form or another, Microsoft's share of the marked as of December 2012 is 81%. A 19% share hardly is one that dominates the world.

OS MARKET SHARES: http://www.netmarketshare.com/os-market ... px?qprid=9
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Re: Linux vs Windows (Former MOD)

Postby Kellemora » 19 Jan 2013, 12:13

Hi Yogi

The charts you always post, ONLY show the desktop market.
Everyone knows Windows still dominates the dying desktop market.
And the percentages you give in that arena about as accurate as they can be for that market.
No arguments there!

The ones I mention, and the links I usually give, point to the overall picture, and in some cases to specific venues.
UNIX/Linux is the dominant OS used everywhere except desktops!
And even on desktops, it is growing.
The real problem is, there is no way of counting how many folks use Linux.
We don't have to Register to use it, and nobody tracks those who use Linux to come up with a count.

If you are on a Windows computer, running a browser and connect to a web site, most of those web sites are running Linux, so you are seeing the output from Linux on your Windows based computer.

I have several browser add-on's from companies that only write software for Windows computers. Since it is Browser Related, and not OS related, it really doesn't matter what OS you are running. Although I'm on Linux, I have Grammarly running in each web browser, including Chromium. Grammarly does not cater to the Linux community! It's a shame, because I know more writers who use Linux than I do writers who use the Doze. Simply because of the amount of software available to us, most for free. I do pay for some proprietary software for Linux to help support the company that maintains it. I try to support most products or services I use, even if only in a small way, every little bit helps keep those services available and updated.

Although I cut my teeth on Heath/Zenith Octal Entry, Apple One Motherboard, Apple II and II+, Lisa, MAC and finally PC's. I've used Windows since it first came out, 3.0, 3.11 was a good one, then 95, 98 and XP, which I still maintain. When they introduced Vista, I HAD to look elsewhere and tried Linux again. I guess I was just lucky I tried Ubuntu 8.04 as my reintroduction to Linux. It worked perfectly out of the box. I had some hardware that wouldn't work with it, and when I replaced that hardware, I made sure to buy only hardware compatible with what I had. Had no problems with 8.04 and waiting until 2012 before moving to 10.04, it was a downgrade from 8.04 and 12.04 is even worse, especially with UNITY. I do have 12.04 on one machine, wiped UNITY and using Gnome. But all of my daily work is done on 10.04 and now some on Mint/Maya/Mate. Tried Cinnamon and had all kinds of problems. Mate is OK, but the repositories do not have up to date or functional things I need, such as a working FLASH that doesn't wipe out the CPU. I actually prefer Mint over Ubuntu for writing, but not for on-line use yet, mainly because of the Flash problems. Adobe no longer supports Linux, which is making it very hard on all Linux users to use on-line activities using Flash.
Adobe does run Linux on their own equipment and servers, so they are ONLY Takers and not Supporters of Linux. They want to USE it, but not contribute. For them its a one way street called gimme gimme gimme.
I'm just waiting for them to get the same gesture Nvidia got from Linux Torvolds, hi hi.....

TTUL
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Re: Linux vs Windows (Former MOD)

Postby Yogi » 20 Jan 2013, 16:09

If you want to improve your understanding of the statistics I am using in my discussion, perhaps you would benefit from reading about the methodology used to collect the data. http://www.netmarketshare.com/faq.aspx#Methodology

To summarize, the numbers coming from the Market Share company do not discriminate desktops from servers or any other device. They sample live traffic on the Internet which covers well over 90% of all computers in existence. You might take issue with the fact that there is no way to measure those OS's which never go on the public network. But, if you know anything about statistics at all, you will know that what is represented by 90%+ of the field is nearly certain to be the standard distribution in the off line situations as well.

It does not matter in which application the operating system is used. The raw data from Market Share does not attempt to interpret what OS is best for which application. Frankly, it's irrelevant. The purpose of the data is to show what share of a given operating system is being used on the public network. Linux has consistently been below 1.5% and that is all the number means.

My personal experience with Linux promoters has been that they favor their OS because of what it is not, more so than what it is. Linux is not Windows and it is not proprietary. That's a lovely mantra, but those folks who are leaving the Windows OS behind are not migrating over to Linux. Or, at least that is what the raw data points out. Windows share has fallen, but Linux has not risen. That could be interpreted to mean that people who are familiar with Windows find Linux unappealing.

I understand completely that you have a special need for using Linux. That's all well and good. The entire Linux community is a special and niche market. Nobody is arguing that they do not dominate that market. If you are a network administrator, or a hacker in your garage, you would indeed find Linux suited to your purposes. The rest of the world just wants a computer with an operating system that simply does what they want it to do. Until Linux developers understand that need, Linux will remain an insignificant part of personal computing.
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Re: Linux vs Windows (Former MOD)

Postby Kellemora » 21 Jan 2013, 11:26

Based on your definition of the source of the percentages, since you said it includes the servers providing that data. Then something is really messed up with the data.
It appears to me that if 6 million people hit googles servers, google is counted only ONCE and each of those hitting it are counted individually each time they hit.

You are correct about Linux still being basically a geek users OS on desktops.

Even I am not happy with the current Distro's and their lack of full-functionality.
And many of the major Distro's, like Ubuntu, have turned tail on the desktop Linux community as a whole.

If a windows user wanted to try Linux; currently, there is not a single Distro I could recommend for them to try.
That's not at all good for Linux to try and win friends and influence people. Not a one is fully turn-key right now.

However, for all other devices besides desktops, Linux is still holding all of the top positions.

More people are going to Tablet's now than ever before. Sales of e-Readers, laptops and even netbooks are falling, regardless of the OS on them. The so-called Smart Phones are moving up, using docking stations with full-size keyboards and monitors, doubled as a desktop computer. And currently, Linux is the dominant OS on Smart Phones. With more Linux Distro's joining the party.

For what most Smart Phones and Tablets are used for, the underlying OS makes little difference to the user. This is becoming more obvious as Cloud usage is being forced heavily by these devices.

Stop a few random people on the street and ask what OS their Smart Phone runs, and 19 out of 20 won't be able to tell you! They don't know and don't care, as long as it works for what they use their phone for.

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