Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

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Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby kg » 05 Nov 2011, 01:02


Oh, looky looky!

Mint has taken over the #1 ranking that Ubuntu has held for so very long! I have read that it's mainly over displeasure with Canonical's insistence on the Unity desktop, but I'm sure there are a few other reasons, as well.

Do you think Shuttleworth will "read the tea leaves," or continue to do as he wants with it? Ubuntu has held the #1 spot for years; this may be an historic occasion.
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby kg » 05 Nov 2011, 01:36


And....I've checked out the Linux Mint Website and like what I've read. The current distro of Mint (Version 11) still uses Gnome 2.X, but they're getting ready to introduce Gnome 3 into Version 12. But fear not! I think you'll like what you read about it, as well!

Linux Mint 12 Preview

Mint, based on Ubuntu and Debian, was nice before, because it came with so many of the restricted codecs/drivers/etc. already installed that you had to install yourself with Ubuntu. That in itself wasn't enough to prompt me to switch, though. I know what I need to install to do what I want to do in Ubuntu. Mint only offered the convenience of not having to do all that.

With the onset of Gnome 3 and Unity (it's OK, but nothing to composing a missive to send to my residence about. :P ) and Canonical arbitrarily taking choice in configuration away from the user (unless you're up to a little hacking), I'm just a bit less than happy. I like the attitude of the post I linked to above. I'm OK with doing some experimenting with different desktops and features, but I want the choice to accept or reject them.

It seems that Mint is offering those choices. I may download 11 and see what it's about. 12 is supposed to be released Nov 11 (but not if it's not ready...I like that attitude, too!).
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby Yogi » 05 Nov 2011, 08:50

Change is good, or at least that is the party line in most places. The big issue I have with Linux in general is that it is open source and dependent upon a loose knit community of arrogant programmers for it's existence (don't ask how I know programmers are arrogant :mrgreen: ). And, tech support is a joke, albeit useful at times.

As you know my experience with Ubuntu these days is primarily virtual wherein I've learned to deal with Unity. As it turns out I've seen the classic Ubuntu when my virtual box was short on resources and could not display the Unity desktop. I discovered that there is a choice at log on time, but of course it's not obvious because the developers want you to give Unity a shot.

Well, I gave up on being serious about any distribution of Linux. That does not mean I will not experiment with it, but I am now convinced that it will never be a generally accepted alternative to Windows. Windows is f****d up, but at least it has a multi-billion dollar corporation backing it with an army of software engineers all working for the same cause. I'm now at the point where I'm looking at alternatives to Linux and have indeed created a freeBSD machine in my VirtualBox environment. As soon as I figure out how to install the GUI and get out of the command line mode, I'll be reporting on my findings.
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby Yogi » 05 Nov 2011, 09:01

I didn't see any rankings here http://distrowatch.com/ but I did see Ubuntu at the top of the list of Linux Media and Mint underneath it.

I started reading the Mint review http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1851 and was laughing to myself half way through it. Where have I seen that kind of review before? ( Can you say Windows XP users? ) The biggest issue I see people griping about is that the latest releases of software are "forcing" people to change the way they use their computers. Hellooooo. This is the 21st century folks. It's about "the cloud," like it or not.
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby kg » 05 Nov 2011, 12:03

Yogi wrote:Change is good, or at least that is the party line in most places.


Personally, I would replace "change" with "choice" in the Linux world.

Yogi wrote:...tech support is a joke, albeit useful at times.


You know that you can get Windows-style tech support, at least from Canonical. Like Windows, you're liable to have to pay for it, though. The only difference is that a user doesn't get the free "first 90 days" support.

http://www.ubuntu.com/business/services/overview

Yogi wrote:(I) have...created a freeBSD machine in my VirtualBox environment. As soon as I figure out how to install the GUI and get out of the command line mode, I'll be reporting on my findings.


There are BSD distros available with the DTE already included. Which major distro are you using? I'll find one of the off-shoots that use that as a base, but includes the DTE. Unless you just particularly want to learn how to do it. I can probably find instructions on doing that. I seem to remember reading something.... :mrgreen:

Yogi wrote:I didn't see any rankings here http://distrowatch.com/ but I did see Ubuntu at the top of the list of Linux Media and Mint underneath it.


You didn't scroll down far enough. A little way under the "Linux Media" box you're talking about is where the "Top 100" ranking list starts.
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby Yogi » 05 Nov 2011, 12:42

I still didn't see the stats you refer to, but I did see this in the Mint review:
Going forward, we won’t be using a custom search engine anymore. Linux Mint is the 4th most popular desktop OS in the World, with millions of users, and possibly outgrowing Ubuntu this year.
SOURCE: http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1851




I used freeBSD 8.2 for the virtual machine. A little research (very little at this point) suggests that the x-term and whatever GUI they use is all in the .iso package. I even read what it takes to install it, but none of it seemed to apply to what I have. Yes, it would be nice to have an Ubuntu style system right out of the box, but I don't mind re-learning some of the fundamentals about Linux/Unix all over again. It's just such a pain finding what I need to know because the assumption is that anybody using freeBSD already knows the basics. A lot like Ubuntu, you know? :mrgreen:
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby kg » 05 Nov 2011, 14:05

Yogi wrote:I still didn't see the stats you refer to


OK, you've already seen the "Linux Media" box on the right. If you scroll down, just below that is "Linux Books," then a long "Page Hits Rankings." Ubuntu has held the number one spot on that rankings list for years (I've watched the Distrowatch website for quite a while, well before I started using Linux seriously).

Yogi wrote:It's just such a pain finding what I need to know because the assumption is that anybody using freeBSD already knows the basics. A lot like Ubuntu, you know? :mrgreen:


Well, more or less. The same is required with Windows, if you're installing it yourself. A user generally buys a computer with it pre-installed. If that user intends to install Windows on the computer, that user needs at least a basic (more or less) understanding of what he or she is doing. Otherwise, that user is likely to end up with a brick that can't access the Internet to download the Ethernet and other drivers he or she needs to connect to it (among other little "niggling" problems, like graphic card drivers, etc.). :mrgreen:

I know! I don't need to tell you that I've installed Windows many times myself, from 3.X to Vista. The last time, thank goodness I had Linux so I could download the drivers I forgot to download before starting the installation! :whistle:

I'm sorry, but I think your difficulty with Linux is mainly lack of experience with it. Windows is easy and intuitive to you because you've had (how many?) years of experience with it. With my relatively short experience with Linux, it now seems much easier to me to install and maintain Linux than it does with Windows. Windows takes days and days to get set up and the software I need installed (even when I was totally immersed and experienced with it). Linux takes me a couple of hours to install completely, and maybe another day to set it up the way I want it.

A few years back, I bought a Vista Home Premuim Full Install disk. I paid quite a bit more than that for it (it was newly released then). Here's the same for Windows 7. Ubuntu Full Install - Priceless! :P

At this juncture, I'll put up with searching for (sometimes inadequate) software, hacking my way through problems, researching obscure technical data, and sometimes screaming in frustration. If at some point I get enough, I can always ask for my money back! :grin:
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby Yogi » 07 Nov 2011, 12:12

When you are at the point where you attempt to install your own operating system, you have enough technical savvy to understand what is needed to accomplish the task. The concepts of partitions and memory management are not foreign to the techie who wants to experiment with other environments. BUT, it has to be a techie and not the average web surfer doing it. That is all understood and presumed.

It should also be kept in mind that installation of an OS is not the same as optimizing it after it is installed. Working with the Windows shell is every bit as challenging as the command line interface in Linux, but how many times have you had to use the shell to optimize Windows? Never in my experience. On the other hand, nearly every install of Linux required me to use the command line interface in order to bring the system to my level of comfort.

There is much to be said about familiarity. That makes life a lot easier when choosing a direction for change. Microsoft's Tech Net is as impossible to find useful information within as all the numerous tech forums for Linux are. The only advantage at Tech Net is that it is all in one place. It's not lack of familiarity that turns me off to the need to re-install the current distribution of Ubunto every six months. Familiarity has little to do with the fact that upgrading from one release to the next always has failed for me; a clean install has always been needed. And in case you are wondering, I never had to re-install Windows in order to get their service packs to function properly. I've also managed to change the audio subsystem in Windows after some research into the availability of new drivers. When I tried the same in Ubuntu, the system crashed and needed a clean install to get back to normal. I will concede that the fact my web cam is not supported in any version of Ubuntu is more of a Logitech problem than an OS problem, but even so I never had to familiarize myself with the idiosyncrasies of web cam software as long as I was using Windows. My discontent has more to do with ease of use than it does with being familiar with implementing changes or tweaks. I'm sure that if I were still system administrator of a bunch of Unix servers for a major corporation, my discontent would be less. But, the truth in the matter is that Linux is trying to look like Windows and integrate into The Cloud, not the other way around. There is a reason for that.
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby kg » 07 Nov 2011, 17:51

Yogi wrote:It should also be kept in mind that installation of an OS is not the same as optimizing it after it is installed. Working with the Windows shell is every bit as challenging as the command line interface in Linux, but how many times have you had to use the shell to optimize Windows? Never in my experience.


I have. Does "msconfig" sound familiar? :mrgreen:

Of course, that command launches a GUI of sorts, but you have to use the command line to launch it. And there have been other instances that I've used the command line to optimize some esoteric setting in Windows that I've run across. :shifty:

Remember, I told you that I've delved deep into the Windows system, and destroyed more than one installation that required me to reinstall! I have "researched much obscure technical data" in my life! :lol:

Yogi wrote:On the other hand, nearly every install of Linux required me to use the command line interface in order to bring the system to my level of comfort.


You'd be surprised how little that's actually required these days. I've went back and forth with the "purists" on the Ubuntu Help Forums over that. There is a GUI available somewhere that will do most of these things for you, but most of the instructions you find are in CLI.

I remember coming across a thread where some purists were instructing a new user in partitioning a hard drive using pure CLI commands (that's extremely hard, BTW, with many different considerations so you don't trash the partitions or make a paperweight out of the hard drive). They were all over me when I suggested that the user (NEW user, mind you!) just boot to a Live CD and do his partitioning with GParted. I was told in no uncertain terms that "that's the way you're supposed to do it in Linux," and was let know to mind my own business! :roll:

Yogi wrote:It's not lack of familiarity that turns me off to the need to re-install the current distribution of Ubunto every six months. Familiarity has little to do with the fact that upgrading from one release to the next always has failed for me; a clean install has always been needed.


I've experienced the same with Windows, though perhaps not to the same degree. I've always clean-installed the next release of Windows. If I merely upgraded, I found the results to be less than good...like I was carrying "old baggage" and problems from one release to the next.

Frankly, unless you want to experiment with things, it's not really a good idea to install each and every release that comes down the pike every 6 months. Better to stick with the LTS releases, which you only have to deal with every two (or three, or in the case of Server releases, five) years. That saves the fine hassle of setting things up all over again every 6 months or so, if you're not inclined to go through it.

I don't mind, personally. I've gone through the process so many times that it's all automatic to me, and I don't have to think about it much. But I can understand a newer (and less techie-prone) user's level of frustration, or that of a user with a very complex configuration. The only reason I worked through the frustration at the beginning was my natural "hacker" proclivities and my determination that "I WAS going to learn to use Linux (even if it killed me :bleh: )"! :P

Yogi wrote:And in case you are wondering, I never had to re-install Windows in order to get their service packs to function properly.


"Service Pack" does not equal "Upgrade." "Service Pack" equals "update." Upgrading 11.04 to 11.10 gives you the next Ubuntu distribution. Upgrading XP to Vista gives you the next Windows distribution. Updating either will leave you with an updated version of the same distribution you had before. If you apply a Service Pack to XP, you still have XP. Have you had to reinstall Ubuntu due to an update?

Yogi wrote:...the truth in the matter is that Linux is trying to look like Windows and integrate into The Cloud, not the other way around. There is a reason for that.


Yes, and the reason is that's the way the Internet itself is evolving, not through any innate desire by the Linux community to somehow "emulate Windows" except as far as an attempt to make it feel more "familiar" to those making the switch, and to be as compatible as possible with existing hardware and peripherals, and User preferences of software usage.

"The Cloud" is an Internet-based concept, not OS-based, every bit as much as the non-free codecs and streaming player formats used on the Internet in general. Of course the Linux community and devs are making every attempt to enable interoperability between the two...Internet content access is now THE major use for computers.

The World Wide Web has been geared towards Microsoft OSes nearly from it's beginning, if not from. Bringing up and insisting on FOSS alternatives aren't going to change that. The same as MacOS has done, Linux has to adapt to existing standards, and make every attempt to bring FOSS alternatives to it, as much as is possible. And they have, though the majority of content is still geared to Windows. Windows remains on the vast majority of computers.

Windows isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and completely insulating Linux from anything Windows-related would relegate Linux to an obscure hobby rather than an OS that is a viable alternative. Though I take issue with some of those changes (like Unity...it has nothing at all to do with Internet access or "The Cloud," and certainly nothing to do with trying to "look like Windows!" It makes my desktop look more like a giant economy-sized Smart Phone. :roll: ), those that are Internet- and hardware related are essential to its survival and competitiveness.
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby Yogi » 11 Nov 2011, 14:25

I just read an critique of Unity and the author hit the nail right on the head.
Jason Kennedy wrote:But then came Canonical’s press release about moving towards tablets and mobile devices.

Suddenly it all clicked: Unity was the beta of a touch interface. In that form factor, it will probably work wonderfully.

Can you say "Cloud Computing?" Yes it IS the OS my friend.

Windows 8 will show you how it's done. It's my understanding, however, that Windows 8 will give you the option to do it the old way too, something Ubuntu fans feel betrayed about in their environment.

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/10 ... new-ubuntu
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby kg » 11 Nov 2011, 20:06


"Touch Interface" has to do with the hardware, not The Cloud, per se. One can still access The Cloud from a non-Touch Interface computer, but with the decreasing size of the devices that require not only The Cloud (because of a lack of space in which to install storage to handle software and storage), but a Touch Interface with which to communicate with it, naturally a "Touch Interface"-style DTE will develop. That's not because a Touch Interface OS is required to access The Cloud. That's just because some hardware (a Smart(?)phone) requires it.

You're right in your second statement. Linux is ostensibly first and foremost about choice. Many make the switch from Windows to Linux because of the perceived lack of choice that Windows presents. When choice is taken away under a Linux distro, those same people react badly to it. Go figure. :shrug:

I agree that Linux (and other OSes that wish to be viable choices) need to address Touch Screen devices in order to remain viable. So work on delivering that service to those devices, but don't take away choice from all other users and force this on them. If and when standard computer interfaces become obsolete, then that choice will eventually die by attrition.

That death shouldn't be forced on all users though, as if they're being told, "it's for your own good" while being forced to eat their broccoli. It should be presented as a choice, and if the individual user decides to reject that choice, that choice should be respected. Choice is one of the basic platforms on which "FOSS" is based. Presently, the only choice Ubuntu is offering is either to use one of its other DTE distributions or Distro Hop away.

That, or become an expert OS hacker, able to hack what they want into existence. I'm sure the vast majority of users don't want to take it to that level, and if one is good enough to do that, one is good enough to use one of the distros that are based on that idea, like Arch or Slackware, where you start out with the core and add those software and services you wish to have.

I may go there at some point, but I don't feel comfortable enough to do that, yet. I've read many things, though, where people have installed Arch or Slackware and can't praise them enough. I just can't say that I'm comfortable enough to make that kind of a jump yet.

I suppose I could install an experimental OS and play with it, but considering various present situations, I'm not inclined to start on such an extensive project. While I've installed VirtualBox on several computers under both Windows and Linux, and read the documentation and am comfortable with it, I have yet to try an actual installation in it. I just don't presently have the energy.
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby Yogi » 12 Nov 2011, 01:04

If I recall correctly you are choosing to still use Windows XP - whenever you are forced to use Windows. Don't feel bad, lots of people choose to stay well behind the curve. I don't see why Linux die hards would be any different than Windows die hards.

The touch pad interface is all about cloud computing. Smart phones and tablets are all about Cloud Computing. And, if you don't think touch pad interfaces are about Cloud Computing too, then perhaps you don't fully appreciate into what the Internet has evolved. And no, last century's OS's are not well suited to soar in The Cloud, albeit they can indeed access it.

Those people who insist on wanting a choice are in reality rejecting change. Well, my friend, the profits to be made are in state of the art technology and not in last century's choices. Perhaps Unity is an idea ahead of it's time. I can understand that. Those Ubuntu guys are breaking the unwritten Linux code. Bad on them. But The Cloud is descending upon us, like it or not. In spite of what I say here, I don't like it either. The operating systems I use will not have a choice built into them. That's why my fall back system is my trusty Windows 98 box sitting right here on my desk any time I need it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby kg » 12 Nov 2011, 05:07

Yogi wrote:If I recall correctly you are choosing to still use Windows XP - whenever you are forced to use Windows.


Vista, actually. It came on this laptop. I have XP on my desktop downstairs, but I never use it and couldn't if I wanted to. Some time back it quit working. I think there's a bug in one of the drivers, or some corruption, but I was never compelled to do anything about it. At some point I'll just erase it and free up the space.

Yogi wrote:Those people who insist on wanting a choice are in reality rejecting change.


Yes, I freely admit that I reject change, especially that change that forces my information into some nebulous "Cloud" on the Internet. Stored locally, I can protect the security of that information, if in no other way, by completely isolating the storage unit from the Internet. No matter what they may say, they cannot guarantee me that my data will be secure when it's stored somewhere on the Internet. It just cannot be done.

Yogi wrote:Well, my friend, the profits to be made are in state of the art technology and not in last century's choices.


I also very well realize that I'm a dinosaur among the race. I'll soon be replaced by today's "kiddies," who will be fully immersed in the newer technology and look on what I use now as I look at the rooms full of equipment that used vacuum tube switches (Oooo...look at this one! It used transistors! How....quaint.). :lol:

Yogi wrote:Perhaps Unity is an idea ahead of it's time. I can understand that. Those Ubuntu guys are breaking the unwritten Linux code. Bad on them. But The Cloud is descending upon us, like it or not. In spite of what I say here, I don't like it either. The operating systems I use will not have a choice built into them. That's why my fall back system is my trusty Windows 98 box sitting right here on my desk any time I need it. :mrgreen:


I don't think I'll go back as far as '98. That's practically DOS! ;)

I have no problems distro hopping. I'm by no means tying my boat to Ubuntu's dock...it's not even the first GNU/Linux distro I tried. Way back in the day, I tried Redhat 5.1, and then Mandrake (now Mandriva).

Unfortunately, that was back in the day! I found myself with partially functioning OSes with no sound and no Internet access because I lacked the drivers for the equipment. Of course, with no Internet access I was unable to look for or download the drivers, so.....suffice it to say that GNU/Linux is a completely different animal now.

There are hundreds of different distros out there offering many different configurations. Or like I said, there are a few "roll your own" varieties that you can set up the way you like it. Was it you that directed my attention to software that would aid you in building your own distro? I don't know if I bookmarked that site or not.

Yes, our type of computing is on the way out. It's just that it should die out by attrition, not be forced out by "money." I don't need change forced on me; I can tie an albatross around my own neck! :lol:
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby kg » 12 Nov 2011, 05:27


I found the bookmark that I think was what you pointed me to, but it wasn't exactly what I thought. Through a bit of searching, I found a site that was directed at building your own distro, but it's a bit more complex than using some special software:

Welcome to Linux From Scratch

I've bookmarked that, as well, and may download the books for future reference.
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby Yogi » 12 Nov 2011, 10:21

It's a chicken and egg type question. Did The Cloud precede the need for it, or did people's changing computer usage bring on The Cloud? It's hard to say what came first, but both are happening right now. As is the nature of all clouds the Internet is nebulous and ill-defined. The attraction to it now is the profit motive, thanks to my hero(?) Steve Jobs. He showed how to use change to the financial advantage of a corporation. Microsoft too is finally abandoning it's NT based OS to cater to the tablets and notebooks of the world - it doesn't seem to be doing so well in the smart phone world, however. Thus, when you have the suppliers to 98% of the Internet users change direction, that other 2% can't ignore what is happening.

Don't misunderstand what is happening in The Cloud. The concept of buying your applications and even your OS from the Ap Store is aimed at those folks who don't have time for anything more than a Facebook world. That doesn't mean you can't custom build your own OS, manage your own personal LAN, or run last century's software. In fact some people say the desktop is coming back - not that I thought it ever left. Where you store your personal data will never change. The Cloud is and will be an option and not a venue forced upon everyone who uses a computer. Think about it. Where are all those cloud servers saving THEIR backups. :grin:

Getting back to Unity, I will say that I don't know what its developers had in mind. The blog I linked to above nails it in my opinion. Ubuntu development is changing directions and they failed to tell the community what it's doing. That is the beauty of the Microsoft's system of OS's. You know what is coming because you have to buy it with hard currency. That forces you to be aware of what you are putting your money into. The Ubuntu organization simply published it's six month distro (now is that an update or an upgrade?) and didn't feel a need to explain much. I can understand that. The Ubuntu development community is a bunch of (in a very good sense) hackers not businessmen.

As a personal aside let me reiterate my thoughts on the Windows OS business. I purchased Vista and the very expensive tower I put it in with the intent of making it a long term investment. I was not going to succumb to Microsoft's planed obsolescence business plan and replace my OS every few years. But then the Redmond management team changed the direction of the company. Windows 7 was to be the last of it's kind. It is going to be all cloud computing thereafter. So, I bit the bullet and paid the market price for the full install version of their high end product. Hopefully that will last me a dozen years or more as did Win98. My system is fully loaded with open source software applications, and I thought that perhaps I could go that route with an operating system as well. As it turns out the Linux people can't keep their act together for six months, much less six (or twelve) years. I don't know where I'm going next, but I have at least ten more years to think it over. Maybe some yet to be born distro of Linux will emerge out of the perpetual beta phase by then. Who knows? For now it's Windows for my mainstream computing. I don't see a compelling reason to change at this point.
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby kg » 12 Nov 2011, 15:53


You know, that's what I like about our conversations. Your posts always prompt me to answer some point or another (or several), as apparently mine do you. That's a good thing! :mrgreen:

Yogi wrote:It's a chicken and egg type question. Did The Cloud precede the need for it, or did people's changing computer usage bring on The Cloud? It's hard to say what came first, but both are happening right now.


Really, as you have previously described it, I think The Cloud preceded itself. Only the name was changed to protect the innocent(?). :lol:

There has been on-line storage and "apps" for years. On-line email accounts and "clients" are a prime example. Instead of having an email client installed on your hard drive and downloading and storing your emails there, it's all done and stored on-line. That was around for years, way before the concept of "The Cloud" and its possible uses.

Yogi wrote:As is the nature of all clouds the Internet is nebulous and ill-defined.


You can say that again! As a matter of fact, you can say it numerous times, each with reference to a different aspect!

Yogi wrote:The attraction to it now is the profit motive, thanks to my hero(?) Steve Jobs. He showed how to use change to the financial advantage of a corporation.


Oh, I think I can safely say the "profit motive" attraction to the Internet far preceded Steve Job's pointing it out! We've been able to purchase and download "apps" over the Internet...even "run" them...for many years now. The only thing that's changed is the methodology, really.

Yogi wrote:Don't misunderstand what is happening in The Cloud. The concept of buying your applications and even your OS from the Ap Store is aimed at those folks who don't have time for anything more than a Facebook world. That doesn't mean you can't custom build your own OS, manage your own personal LAN, or run last century's software. In fact some people say the desktop is coming back - not that I thought it ever left. Where you store your personal data will never change. The Cloud is and will be an option and not a venue forced upon everyone who uses a computer. Think about it. Where are all those cloud servers saving THEIR backups. :grin:


I was going to edit the above for brevity, but it all bears remaining as is. You made a very astute statement.

No, I understand the concept very well. I realize that not everyone has the time, desire, or (especially) the ability for such a "hobby," but in this day and age, people want (and need!) access to the information and services available. More and more, it's getting so that some of these services and information are available only from that source, unless they want to jump through hoops to get it.

The ability...you don't know how many times I've read help requests on various forums and thought, "Some people shouldn't be allowed to touch a computer!" I've had friends who just can't understand why they have to take their computer to their Tech almost monthly and pay to have Malware removed, when most of their usage is viewing pr0n. I want to tell them to get a magazine and stuff it under their mattress, but it would do no good and just piss them off at me (and sometimes I wonder whether that would be such a bad thing). :doh:

No, Internet access is quickly becoming required. Nice for the profiteers, and yes, (arguably) good for everyone. One no longer need drive to the store to find and purchase each and every little thing; go to the library and pour over obscure and esoteric tomes searching for some obscure bit of (technical) information; pay your bills or do your banking via paper and the ever-so-"reliable" snail mail service. In fact, in many cases it's becoming (being made?) increasingly difficult to do so.

Yogi wrote:That is the beauty of the Microsoft's system of OS's. You know what is coming because you have to buy it with hard currency. That forces you to be aware of what you are putting your money into. The Ubuntu organization simply published it's six month distro (now is that an update or an upgrade?) and didn't feel a need to explain much. I can understand that. The Ubuntu development community is a bunch of (in a very good sense) hackers not businessmen.


Oh, I don't know. While the devs, etc. may not be good businessmen, Canonical is a business, and I'm sure they have businessmen on their staff that couldn't hack their way out of a wet paper bag. They are in business; they do make money; they do offer professional services to corporate users of their products.

And no, most people don't become aware of what they are putting their money into. They buy a computer with Windows pre-installed. They have no concept of what their money goes for. All they do is buy a computer, take it home, hook it up (or in many cases, have it hooked up), and expect it to work.

They could have Linux pre-installed and they would no more know the difference if it bit them. Remember the computers some years back with Lindows (since become Linspire) pre-installed? As long as it's officially supported and they can take it somewhere and have the work done, the (uneducated) end user could care less what OS is installed.

BTW, a six month distro is a release. Updates are done within a release. When you upgrade, it's to a new release...a new "cutsey name," like XP or Vista. :mrgreen:

Yogi wrote:I purchased Vista and the very expensive tower I put it in with the intent of making it a long term investment. I was not going to succumb to Microsoft's planed obsolescence business plan and replace my OS every few years. But then the Redmond management team changed the direction of the company...I bit the bullet and paid the market price for the full install version of their high end product. Hopefully that will last me a dozen years or more as did Win98.


Thing is, at some point Win7 will no longer be supported. No more security updates, let alone others, same as with W98. As the Internet (and malware) progresses, what you have will be increasingly left behind. With the browsers available to run on W98, there will be less and less content you're able to access due to changes in content delivery formats (HTML5, anyone?).

The same will happen with Win7, and that may happen quicker than you expect at the rate it's changing. I know this...you told me all about the changes! :mrgreen:

Yogi wrote:...(T)he Linux people can't keep their act together for six months, much less six (or twelve) years. I don't know where I'm going next, but I have at least ten more years to think it over. Maybe some yet to be born distro of Linux will emerge out of the perpetual beta phase by then. Who knows? For now it's Windows for my mainstream computing. I don't see a compelling reason to change at this point.


My use of GNU/Linux (I should really call it what it is...Linux is the kernel; GNU is the Operating System) is due more to my "experimenting" nature more than anything else. Yes, I wanted to get away from (the high-priced, low choice, frustrating) Windows, but that wasn't the primary concern in my decision.

I've experimented with many different OSes over the years. Even back when DOS was "it," I experimented with several different versions of Amiga DOS. I've gone through OS/2, BeOS (back when it was a "complete" desktop OS), Linux (early days, as I mentioned above), along with nearly every version of Windows, excluding the early "NTs" and Windows versions before Windows 3.0 (I have an old laptop that came with 3.0 installed).

There are Linux distros that don't put out a new release at the drop of a hat. OpenSUSE and especially Slackware come to mind. Like everything else, there are those who complain about that, and I can understand their point in a way. It's hard to stay up with the changes without the ability to stay up with their evolution.

Then there are other models of release, such as the "rolling release" concept. If you've read about Mint Debian, they use this model. One of the advantages of it is, you install the OS once, and never have to reinstall again. Every software and OS upgrade is slowly rolled into your installation. It's similar to the BSD "tree" concept. I don't know...you might want to check that out.

However, if you see no compelling reason, then there probably isn't one. The choice is the user's. Linux is interesting, it's useful to me, and I see no reason at this point to switch back. I'm very nearly completely immersed in it now, and Windows is increasingly difficult and frustrating for me to both use and maintain.

Besides, it takes too blasted long to boot up and shut down! My fingers have become sensitive to all the tapping on the table, and my hourglass has long since run out of sand. :lol:
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby Yogi » 13 Nov 2011, 09:58

"You know, that's what I like about our conversations. Your posts always prompt me to answer some point or another (or several), as apparently mine do you. That's a good thing!"
It's Brainformation at it's best :!:

I think we have beaten this thread to a pulp, but you did inspire me to answer an additional point or two. :grin:

Steve Jobs did not create the concept of profiting from the Internet. The porn industry is what started it all. We would not be here today if it was not for that aspect of life. However, Steve Jobs showed the world how to use the Internet as a profit making tool, not just as a means to an end. Apple's cash reserves are greater than the venerable (now vulnerable) Microsoft. Ray Ozzie - the same Ozzie that invented VisiCalc - is now taking Microsoft to The Cloud. But, Apple led the way.

Canonical may indeed be a for profit business, but their Ubuntu team has gone a long way to alienate the hand that feeds them. I rarely read any good comments about tech support or developers. In fact the greatest rivalries in a corporation are between the engineers and the accounting departments. So, I'm not surprised that those egotistical and arrogant developers behind the scenes at Ubuntu couldn't care less about what their dumb-*** users want. If Ubuntu works for Canonical then their business plan will become obvious via their support or lack thereof in the Unity project. Linux is a niche market and maybe, just MAYBE, Ubuntu is trying to break the mold similar to what Apple Computer did. I doubt that there is another Steve Jobs in the wings, but he took the Unix core and ran with it to the laughter of all those Microsoft folks.

There comes a time when it doesn't make sense, or dollars, for a software company to support an old product. I still run Windows 98 sans any support whatsoever. I'm not worried about any vicious malware or viruses infecting that machine. Who writes 16 bit code these days anyway? The argument that Windows 98 dies from lack of functionality is weak at best. It's my fall-back machine and I don't need all the bells and whistles there. And, don't laugh too hard at us Windows 98 people because I'm hearing the same arguments when I read about Unity. It is a matter of choice, indeed. Windows 7 will die a natural death as far as corporate support is concerned. Unless something comes along to replace the Internet, I'm not worried about obsolescence ten years out. After all, there is a hard core of Linux adherents that refuse to migrate off last century's software. I'm just going to be in a different camp but doing the same thing. :mrgreen:
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Re: Signs Of Displeasure With Unity?

Postby kg » 22 Nov 2012, 12:14


As an addendum to the point of this thread:

It seems that Ubuntu has been further supplanted in Distrowatch's "Page Hit Rankings":

[ img ]

While Linux Mint maintains the top spot in the rankings, Ubuntu has been relegated to the #3 spot by a relative newcomer based on Mandriva, called Mageia. I haven't downloaded and checked it out, but it sounds interesting. Years back, I installed Mandrake (the predecessor of Mandriva, at least in name) for a time. While interesting, it was still in the early days of Linux (the late '90s), and I was unable to find many of the drivers for my various hardware (same with Red Hat, which I installed previous to that).
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