muslims in the UK

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Re: muslims in the UK

Postby Wonderbunny » 08 Apr 2012, 07:04

As much as I've railed against the racism displayed by my fellow Brits towards "Johnny Foreigner", I am capable of seeing both sides to an argument. In this instance I'd say "British police go to hell" COULD be construed as just as offensive as the racist comments that have landed other people in trouble, including members of the police force.

On the other hand "Go to hell!" is a comparatively mild figure of speech that's often used against people's nearest and dearest in domestic arguments.

The danger is when the issues become race issues so that "A Muslim lady shouldn't have been arrested in this instance." becomes "All British police are always wrong.". Big difference.

Do you remember the fatwah against Salman Rushdie? I vividly remember a programme on TV about children's dreams at around that time in which a young British Muslim girl said she had dreamed that she had killed Rushdie and felt extremely proud. This indoctrination of children is wrong. There are so many children who do naturally get on with their peers of all races who in my opinion should be paraded as benchmark success stories.

I also met a very intelligent Pakistani ex-pat who despaired that his ex-wife and her family believed that Rushdie should die.

Why can't we all get together and abhor racism in all forms instead of each race only citing examples of racism against their own particular clique? Why can't we get rid of the word "race" and look at people as people and judge each by their own words and deeds?
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Re: muslims in the UK

Postby Ice.Maiden » 08 Apr 2012, 08:26

I look forward to the day that this might be possible, but I think it's a long way off yet. I've had the same discussions regarding gay folk. People are people, and although it's natural to label someone or something which over-all might be considered "different", it really shouldn't be.

One of the problems is that many in the western world HAVE tried to do this, by extending hospitality and a welcome to people flocking to our shores, but unfortunately, those arriving often don't reciprocate by showing any gratitude, and refuse to integrate. Instead, they expect us to change to THEIR ways, and anyone who doesn't is the "infidel".

As you rightly say, indoctrination and bigotry starts early, and it comes from all sides, not just the Asian culture. This divide's made worse by conflicting religious attitudes, and a a hatred of authority (such as when demonstrating against our police and laws). It's a complex issue, which ought to be discussed in depth between ordinary people, the Imams, our religious leaders and government representatives.

Thank goodness that common sense prevails in large pockets. We have friends of mixed races and creeds, and everyone gets on famously. We accept that there are some things which we'll never totally agree on, but neither do we argue about them. You have to accept that different cultures see things in different ways, and so long as this isn't hurting anyone, I don't see what's wrong with it.

I've said this somewhere before, but at the village primary school which my children attended, the few children of different races all mixed in together with no problems. Prior to lessons which included RE, letters were sent out to all parents, who, if they objected, could ask that their children be excused. There wasn't one objection. Asian children learnt a basic grasp of Christianity, and the rest got a basic grasp of Hinduism, Islam and Buddhism. The children were interested, and it helped them to see that the differences made no difference to their friendships and acceptance of others. They also shared religious celebrations, by putting on little plays.

Sadly, some'd scream that the UK is a Christian place, but it hasn't happened here, and everyone gets on well. I'd love to see all people living harmoniously, but there'll always be those who can't see beyond their own beliefs, which is very sad, and sometimes dangerous.
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Re: muslims in the UK

Postby pilvikki » 08 Apr 2012, 10:15


The danger is when the issues become race issues so that "A Muslim lady shouldn't have been arrested in this instance


but, as i mentioned, muslim is not a race. they come in all varieties from fishbelly white to the coal black, although most them are brown.

People are people, and although it's natural to label someone or something which over-all might be considered "different", it really shouldn't be.


oh hang on, that's where i go the other way: what is wrong being different AND having it noticed? otherwise you'd be talking to a deaf person and showing the view to one totally blind. oh pardon me, those either visually challenged or hearing impaired... :crazy:

there is buggerall wrong with being black, white, green, purple, sikh or gay, BUT on the other hand, don't demand special concessions that go against the rest of the people you live with. there should be no kirpans [knives] in schools, no burkas in banks, no using puppies for fishbait, no naked people in the streets - in canada. [it's ok in scandinavia and finland though.]

it's merely common sense! why bring on extra strife when living takes up so much energy as it is?
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Re: muslims in the UK

Postby Ice.Maiden » 08 Apr 2012, 11:32

The point I was trying to make there, is that being "different" shouldn't mean that you're saddled with labels which are of no help to anyone. People come into, and exit, the world in basically the same way. We know that if an Indian lady has a bindi on her forehead, that it sometimes has religious beliefs attached to it - it being the 6th chakra, or third eye, and's there to ward off demons and evil spirits, as well as for decoration. Some white people also wear them, and there's no ban on a Sikh wearing one either - so that shows tolerance - but it's mainly used within the Hindu community, which a Muslim wouldn't usually do. It's harmless and - to my mind - inoffensive - so in that respect, mode of dress or adornment should be at the user's discretion. I have nothing against burkas either, apart from the fact that I'd rather see a person's face whilst talking to them, but it's unfair to label these people as somehow being "weird", just because they don't adhere to what WE consider's proper.

Put the boot on the other foot though. Many Muslims consider our way of dress to be more than offensive, and if they had their way, and introduced Sharia Law fully, we wouldn't be able to show an ankle without being punished. This is why I think it'll be a long time before attitudes change, and we should try and accept others as they are - not to change them - but only when these practices aren't hurting anyone else.
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Re: muslims in the UK

Postby pilvikki » 08 Apr 2012, 16:52


i find speaking to a burka extremely uncomfortable. i had no idea it would be until i had a chat with a total stranger in the park. she had the most amazingly gorgeous eyes but even though i'm not very good at body language, i still found myself fidgeting for the lack of it. you don't really know what anyone is saying until you see it.

same as why i don't like talking on the phone - i need all the help i can get...

i still say "do as the romans". meaning if you live in scotland, you'd better get comfy with men wearing skirts and in stockholm people wearing nothing.

as for women having to wear a burka... they are uncomfortable, suffocating and turn very fast very smelly, so wearing one in a hot climate can be construed as a punishment for being female.

and why aren't men wearing them? nope, they're prancing around in whites!
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Re: muslims in the UK

Postby Ice.Maiden » 08 Apr 2012, 17:34

I know what you mean, although burkas are by no means always in black. They have yellow, orange, pink, blue, green, red, grey - a whole array of colours, although the most commonly seen over here are black or pale blue.

What I find farcical though, is all this outcry about western fashions being sinful. I was recently looking at some pics from catwalk shows in Pakistan. For the elite, the models display clothes that "ordinary" people can't buy. I was amazed by their makeup and use of bright colours. Look at this as an example ....

[ img ]

It's the pot calling the kettle really.
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Re: muslims in the UK

Postby van » 09 Apr 2012, 03:06

Kia ora

"All we need, is a great big melting pot............"
The problem which we face however is the extent to which we apply timing and heat in the kitchen!
The Chef's delight is "everything done to a turn" for the perfect result. In real life we are not afforded such luxuries.

I DON'T agree with demonstrations which call for killing others though.

The vast majority of us no doubt feel the same way yet where is our resistance when our Elected Rulers decree that such steps be taken? We do have a "Civilised" way of implementing such radical measures, duly cloaked in appropriate language such as "Doing our bit for NATO". More than a mere 'Demonstration' it becomes a reality which we tend not to acknowledge!

For whatever reason we object to the mores of other cultures, we ought to closely examine "The beam embedded in our own eye". Over time some of our own well documented excesses have been somewhat curtailed, though are neverteless still close to the surface. Given time concessions can be made by all, tho I fear that when it comes to religious dogma embedded within Society it is considerably more difficult.

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Re: muslims in the UK

Postby Wonderbunny » 09 Apr 2012, 04:38

i find speaking to a burka extremely uncomfortable. i had no idea it would be until i had a chat with a total stranger in the park. she had the most amazingly gorgeous eyes but even though i'm not very good at body language, i still found myself fidgeting for the lack of it. you don't really know what anyone is saying until you see it.

I suppose at least you can see the person's eyes, which is the polite place to look in Western society. Burka doesn’t rule out hand gestures either, or emotion in the voice as in radio plays.

as for women having to wear a burka... they are uncomfortable, suffocating and turn very fast very smelly, so wearing one in a hot climate can be construed as a punishment for being female.

At least you wouldn't get sunburnt wearing burka. I have been told that the long black skirt acts as a chimney that draws up cooler air from near the ground. I wouldn't want to wear fabric over my nose and mouth though. But many Muslim women seem to want to wear burka, and people should wear what they want. At home with their husbands and female friends many Muslim women display the expensive designer clothes they wear underneath.

But yes, some Muslim countries are very poor on the treatment of women. I've also been told by Christians such as Jehovah's Witnesses that God's plan is for women to defer to their husbands.
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Re: muslims in the UK

Postby Ice.Maiden » 09 Apr 2012, 10:35

"I've also been told by Christians such as Jehovah's Witnesses that God's plan is for women to defer to their husbands."

Many religions, or branches of, think in the same way. It was generally done in the UK as well until quite recent times. A miner's wife once told me that just 60 years ago, women were expected to "put up and shut up". Their husbands toiled all day down the pits, and it was normal for them to go out afterwards with their friends, get drunk, then come home and expect a meal on the table for them. They also often succumbed to what was basically being raped. Those who didn't oblige were often hit or mentally beaten into submission.

In the main, these laws, whether religious-based or not, were made by men, FOR men.

It's true to say that some women LIKE wearing the burka or hijabs. A woman's hair is seen as a thing of beauty and not to be admired by men other than the husbands, so they respectfully comply. If that's what they want to do, then fair enough.

I suppose I was honoured when, last year, I went into my doctor's surgery, and there at the reception desk stood a woman in a full burka. As I approached, I saw her swiftly hide something beneath the skirt, which looked like a baby carrier. I smiled in her direction, and asked if she had a baby with her. When she said yes, I asked if I could have a quick look, and she obliged. For a few seconds, she raised the burka and I saw the sweetest little baby staring back at me.

"Beautiful," I said. "Thank you very much."

The woman nodded, and I could see through the gauze across her eyes that she was smiling. Despite keeping the child under wraps, she was obviously proud, so they're no different to anyone else in that respect.
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