Hacking - romaticized?

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Hacking - romaticized?

Postby Silke » 26 Aug 2011, 11:31

You see them in movies and you hear about them. People who think everything should be open for everyone. They seal information and give it to the people.

Heroes or villains?
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby Wonderbunny » 26 Aug 2011, 13:56

seal or steal, Silke?

I'd say it very much depends on the type of information. Some things are private and personal.
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby Ice.Maiden » 26 Aug 2011, 19:13

Don't know about that, but the government's been keeping tabs on us all for years. Some of the questions on the last Census form were getting quite personal.
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby pilvikki » 31 Aug 2011, 00:32


oh yes.... the government...

and then you think further and remember that is not some mythical, single entity, but comprises of small-minded people siting in small cubicles.

as for having one's info all over the place, it's not what they know, but how they use it.

why is it necessary for the government to know if i'm black, white or purple; belong to what religion, if any; earn how much etc. you know.

"they" say it's so they can then better serve we-the-people, but exactly how my life is improved by their knowing i'm white instead of asian - quite escapes me.
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby Ice.Maiden » 31 Aug 2011, 02:53

I agree with you, personally, but on the notes accompanying our Census forms, it explained that these questions are useful to get an idea of what schools, type of living accommodation - and places of worship - are needed in each area, supposedly so as land can be set aside for them.

Quite frankly, I think that's BS. How often are these places built? Considering that we haven't enough housing for everyone as it is - and no money to plough into social housing schemes - it seems a waste of time. It IS a waste of time. I may be cynical, but I think these questions are designed to "keep tabs" on as many people as possible, especially as personal questions such as: "Are you expecting any overnight guests on ...?" were asked!
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby Silke » 01 Sep 2011, 08:39

lol! I have never been a part of any such survey. I can understand that about "race" though, as it is ground for what kind of education you have the right to. Being sami I have the right to learn my own language - and if the schools won't give it to me I have the right to make it happen and send them the bill anyway. I can also vote for both sami parlament and norwegian one (granted, the sami one is more or less only for counceling, even if people don't realize that...)

but back to topic. it is just... Private detectives are all well and good. if you hire one you could be seen as creepy, but having a person nosing around, making calls and visiting registers to find out whatever is accepted. Likewise no one bats an eye over security personell, even if both of these have the knowledge and means to find out what they want from you, and knowing security they have a good chance of pulling off a heist of somekind. Only we asume they won't, for they are stand-up citizens, so we let them do whatever.

A hacker... has the potensial to do much good, find information which helps investigations, boosting security and all... but we asume all they want to do is rob banks and tell irak what afganiztan thinks of them... which they potensially could do... In the first case we asume they will behave, in the second we asume they won't, but the posibilities are the same. well, tecknically anyway.
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby Ice.Maiden » 01 Sep 2011, 15:38

Quite honestly, if I knew how to hack, I could think of some wonderful places to look into - but not for gain or to breach security for foul reasons - just to say that I COULD!

I take your points about having the right to have the sort of education that befits you, but those personal questions I was on about aren't just from "normal" surveys for marketing purposes. They're directly from the government, and if you live over here, Census forms have to be filled in when they're sent. I don't know whether a fine's in order if you decide not to, but they were on about doing that, making it compulsory. These forms are supposed to be for information about the population growth, but they've become much more than that. At the best, it's nosey. At the worst, it's invading privacy and spying on people.
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby Silke » 02 Sep 2011, 15:59

that would be illegal here. besides, totally unessisary - speaking of hacks - all that information is already out there so they'd just have to do their jobs insead of asking us.

I'm looking into new internet (part of my not being here much is internet sucks). Well, I submitted name and adress into a site that finds out which providers gives the best deals in your area. Loging off I got a call from them and they first asked if I was named ... I told them yes. Then they asked me if I lived at ***. I asked if that wasn't the address I typed, I could almost hear the guy blush. Almost as if people aren't supposed to know what information this guys sit with and how they got it, why even ask? Anyway.
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby Ice.Maiden » 02 Sep 2011, 16:08

:lol:

"Just checking, madam...." :roll:
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby pilvikki » 03 Sep 2011, 23:12


that bit about schooling and churches is a load of manure; the gov doesn't give a rat's ass about churches, build your own if you want one. as for education, the natives are tax exempt and the french have their own schools, so, why not ask if one is native, french of Other? the Others get to all go to an english speaking public school, so the point is otherwise moot.

at least that's how it was last time i looked.

when silja [daughter] had to pick a race on her census form, she put Human. [her sisters disagreed]

i've been lucky for i've always got the short form. just as well, i'd to get into a tiff about that as they are compulsory, like it or not. and me... NOT!
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby Silke » 04 Sep 2011, 10:03

anyone who needs to know, knows.

Another thing I really can't understand is how your personal number is supposed to be so secure. You need to hand it out all over the place, in person, over the phone and over the internet. it is on my drivers license, bank card... and what can't you do when you have a persons personal number? Identity theft is a simple thing, for all they tell us it is complicated.
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby pilvikki » 08 Sep 2011, 00:59


You need to hand it out all over the place, in person, over the phone and over the internet.


exactly!

then they made it law that it was illegal to ask for the SIN [huh?] #. ah, yes, but people would get annoyed if you didn't volunteer it!

now everybody wants your driver's licence #. and having that and your name and date of birth, well, you can pretty well find out whatever you want.
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby Ice.Maiden » 09 Feb 2012, 21:28

They can go so far, yes. It's like when you're stopped in the street to answer a survey, or they pop through your door with a free pen!!! Throw them in the bin and ignore the rest. It's not simply done for marketing purposes.

In a "free" country, people should be allowed to withhold information and keep their privacy, so long as it's not harming anybody. Don't worry - for those with the right sort of money, they DO manage to keep their privacy pretty much.
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby Yogi » 10 Feb 2012, 10:00

Each country has their own purposes for a periodic census, but the basic truth in all of them is that the statistics are indeed needed to plan for and provide government services. It's all about money, not privacy. I know the schooling in England is "free" for it's citizens, but that free money comes from the taxes your government collects. Your particular shire may not have enough funds to cover basic education needs (new schools, for example) if the population shifted and the number of children needing classroom space increased dramatically since the last census.

In America, political districts represented by members of congress are based on demographics. The only way to make the representation fair is to track how many people live in a given area and redraw the boundaries as required. Also in America, many entitlement programs within those districts are based on minority group membership. Each municipality needs to know how many blacks, Hispanics, Asian, and anybody else that gets special funding, in order to raise enough money to fund the programs. The government subsidizes housing and needs to know if each community is offering it's fair share of support to those folks who can't afford a place on their own. Knowing where you live and what your family income level is helps keep the programs regulated.

It goes on and on in ways you might not readily appreciate. The census needs private information in order to track the effectiveness of the government's governance. The question of keeping it private does not enter into the equation of the hacker's mind. They claim they are making government "transparent" by breaking into databases and stealing the addresses, phone numbers, social security numbers, credit card numbers, and the like to make it all public for anyone who would want to stalk their public servants. Malicious hackers see no reason to keep secret the identities of our intelligence gatherers in Iraq, Afghanistan, N. Korea, Russia, and other places - their take is that we should not be spying in the first place. In my opinion hackers are taking matters into their own hands and advocating anarchy. They may be the 99% that has no power, but there is damn good reason for it to be that way.
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby pilvikki » 12 Feb 2012, 23:21


i'd never seen the now defunct long form that i heard so much about, so i went looking for it.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/imdb-bmdi/instrument/3901_Q2_V3-eng.pdf

i did not find it extreme, just pretty annoying. and some questions questionable. f. ex. newfieland as a birthplace is included in canada, yet it wasn't when i was born. so, if i were a newfie, what would i say, that i was born both in canada and "other"?

ancestors? first oiff, how far back are we talking here? and how much room do you have to list them all? say... squeakie. she's part finnish, english, scottish, polish, irish, german. you can easily add a dusting of swedish, russian, ukrainian, mongol - and who knows what else....

so... their point is...?
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby Ice.Maiden » 24 Feb 2012, 21:30

Our last census forms were nothing short of privacy invasion. They wanted to know if you'd had any guests stay overnight between certain dates. WHY?? What's it got to do with them?
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby Wonderbunny » 25 Feb 2012, 04:09

That reminds me of the biblical nativity story. Everyone had to travel to the place of their birth for the census.
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby threenorns » 25 Feb 2012, 08:46

that never happened, wonderbunny.

it's not how the romans did things. when they did a census, you sat your ass in the building you were in and you stayed PUT until they got around to you. once you were tallied, they put a stamp on the back of your hand and you were free to resume your activities.

whoever came up with that little gem clearly had no idea of the logistics of running the Roman Empire. if you want an accurate - and they were VERY accurate - picture of the population, the last thing you did was tell everybody to up and shift about all over the place.
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Re: Hacking - romaticized?

Postby pilvikki » 27 Feb 2012, 13:32

    it was not so much a census as an audit:

    http://www.roman-empire.net/society/society.html

    a lot of info on that page!
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    Re: Hacking - romaticized?

    Postby Ice.Maiden » 28 Feb 2012, 04:52

    Very interesting.

    However, one piece near the beginning struck me: "It was their role to scrutinize each man, carefully evaluating his riches and his rank and placing him in his rightful place within the civic hierarchy of Rome."

    I think it's a similar thing NOW, not simply for a population count, but so that they know where everyone is, what areas they're in, what type of work they do or don't do - and basically, the more information they can hold in one place, such as on a census form, the easier it might be for "streaming" purposes. I honestly think that'll it'll reach a point where an individual's either classed as "acceptable" or not.

    The last time I was in hospital. I was questioned about what plans I had for the future, and what I did in general. I thought this was odd, but the woman I was talking to was continuously making notes.

    Before I left her office, I asked her why this was necessary. With a weary sigh, she looked me in the eye and said: "There are dozens of new patients coming in every week. We do this now. YOU don't have to worry, I'm sure."

    Like ... WHAT? Was she assessing whether I was "suitable" for the ensuing treatment? Whether I was worth bothering about or not? I don't know, but it sounded horribly like it to me.
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