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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Kellemora » 30 Apr 2013, 13:51

Hi Icey
Although this does not apply to all states here, it does in many. Some much higher than others, and many municipalities also have this very unjust tax that is placed on many things known as Personal Property.

You probably will not believe the number and amount of taxes we have on vehicles in St. Louis County.
My 1997 Blazer, purchased new, was of course hit with a one time sales tax for the purchase.
The annual taxes on vehicles is quite complicated to explain.
You are taxed based on many aspects of the vehicle, the Personal Property Tax part is as follows: The age of the vehicle, the size of the motor in pistons, the actual horsepower or brake horsepower, where it is housed (your home location) and the number of occupants the vehicle can carry.
The annual Personal Property Tax on the Blazer was $600.00
The license plate fee was around $60.00
The safety inspection was around $35.00 (plus they always found something you had to pay to have repaired)
The emissions inspection was around $50.00 (plus they always required a new tune up)
Then we had city stickers, on the Blazer it was another $36.00
These annual taxes come to over 780 bucks per year.
Normal vehicle maintenance runs about 1000 bucks per year.

You've heard me mention that the total taxes paid per year by someone, could possibly be much higher than their income to pay those taxes. This is especially true of the elderly and those on fixed incomes. One of my aunts was faced with annual taxes that exceeded her gross income by over 400%. Which forced her to sell her home to get out from under those taxes.
This is just NOT RIGHT no matter how you look at it.

I want to give you a scenario that will explain just how unjust our taxing system is over here.
I will use an older couple (age 70+) who live in a very small modest home that is finally paid for.
Due to his age, the old fellow can no longer use his old push mower to cut the grass.
So he can continue to cut the grass himself, he goes out and buys an affordable riding lawn mower.
They had to scrimp and save to cover the cost of this riding mower.
Because a riding mower is considered a luxury item, it has a much higher Personal Property Tax than a push mower.
He may have to come up with 50 to 75 dollars per year to pay the Personal Property Tax on this riding mower.
For this old fellow, a riding mower is a necessity, not a luxury. But he is still taxed at Luxury Item rates!
There should be NO Personal Property Tax on anything, but there is!

Let's say he has an old (85+) widow lady living next door to him. He offers to cut her grass for 25 dollars. This is not enough income to reduce is pension, but it changes his classification from retired to self-employed.
It also changes the classification of his riding lawn mower from Personal to Commercial.
The Commercial Property Tax on that same riding mower suddenly jumps to 150 dollars per year.
Which means, the first six times he cuts his neighbors grass, it all goes to the government.
And he must claim the income and pay commercial business taxes on that income.
And whatever is left over after 6 months of mowing grass for her, that is left over, if he passes that income to himself from his company, he has to pay income tax on what he takes for himself as self-employed income on his personal income tax.
This is money that the high tax was already paid on as commercial income, and then again as personal income.
There are ways around some of these taxes, by forming certain types of pass-through corporations.
One that sounds great on the surface, to prevent self-employed income tax, is to claim the income as hobby income.
The problem with hobby income is that you cannot claim any expenses toward that income.

Hobby income is gross income, not net income.
So, if you bought 500 dollars worth of paint to paint your neighbors house, and agreed to paint his house for 250 dollars.
If you do so under the hobby income you must show 750 dollars in gross income.
The way around this is to have your neighbor buy the paint you will use. Just make sure you are not the one who picked it up or accepted the delivery and signed your name to the receipt.

Like you, I have a computer sitting in front of me. I have more than that, but one is enough to make the point.
This is my personal computer!
I use it to do my business accounting. Ut oh, what does that mean?
I use it to do my ghost writing for the publisher. Ut oh, were getting in deeper.
I use it to write my novels, and if they sell. Ut oh, were are now in over our eyeballs.

How did my company do it's accounting on a computer, when the company does not own a computer?
I'm using my computer system in my income generating writing occupation, which makes it a work related item!
Using it to write a novel don't mean much, unless the novel sells, then it was used in pursuit of making an income.

Although here in TN they do not have personal property tax on home computers.
When those computers are used in the pursuit of income, they become a commercial use item, which does have commercial property tax on them.
This tax is fairly high, which is why most businesses rent or lease their equipment.
And therein lies the loophole we need to get out from under that tax.

All of the equipment in my office is leased from myself as an individual to my company.
By leasing the equipment, I have created another business, the leasing company.
What a pity, this poor leasing company must be run by an idiot.
They buy expensive office equipment and lease it out at a major loss.
The leasing company has no taxable income, although they must pay a Use Tax.
Leased items are not taxed as commercial property to the company renting them out.
How much do they lease the equipment out to my company for?
One dollar more than the Use Tax, on each item leased.
My company then has a legal and valid expense, the leasing of the office equipment.
Since it is leased equipment, the company is not taxed, because they don't own it.

Just for the heck of it. If the "my company" has too much income and I need a larger expense.
AND the "leasing company" could earn a higher income before they cross a tax bracket.
The "leasing company" raises their rental rates on the equipment to the "my company."
"My company" is now under the tax bracket line, and the "leasing company" is still under their tax bracket line.
Since technically I am both of those companies, my overall tax is less by paying a higher rental rate on the machines.

The VERY WEALTHY have all of these little loopholes that THEY UNDERSTAND and can Utilize, written into the tax codes. Most of them cannot be utilized by us poor peons. But some of them, due to changes here and there, do become usable for us poor folk. And if you know what they are and what situations can be established to make them available to you, then do it.

Poly-TICK-ians and the Wealthy, get by with millions of things we peons can never get by with.
However, I have a neighbor, a very poor neighbor at that, who, because some poly-TICK-ian had a rule changed so he could do it, my neighbor follows in suit and does the same thing. The city gives him big trouble over it, but he has the changelog for the law in his hand, and the poly-TICK-ian who did the exact same thing. As long as he duplicates the situation exactly, the city can't do a dang thing about it, without going after the poly-TICK-ian also. And we all know, that is not going to happen.

Our animals are taxed also!

OK, this is long enough!

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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Ice.Maiden » 01 May 2013, 09:53

Oh .. my .. goodness!!!! I can hardly work out or understand all those stupid taxes on everything!

So you're telling me that you're taxed for having a ride-on lawn mower, and taxed if you paint a neighbour's house? It's obscene! I hope people don't declare any extra "income" from the favours they do - or don't they bother BECAUSE of being taxed?!! It's outrageous isn't it?

All I can say after reading through that, is that I don't think us lot over here should be moaning at all! Ha ha ha. Oh dear, how awful. So what if someone just can't pay???

In the UK, our vehicles all have to be taxed of course, unless they're over a certain age or just used on private land. The higher the engine capacity, the more tax you pay - e.g. if you have a sports model or a large luxury car. Most people manage to pay it, but it's the insurance which whoomps up the costs. A newly-qualified young driver can pay between £2000-3000 to get insured, because they're classed as being in a high-risk group. However, after that's paid for, apart from general maintenance, fuel costs and MOT charges ... that's it. Phew. Back to horse and carts I say! : )

How do you mean that animals are taxed??? We used to have to buy dog licences, but it was abolished because so many people ignored it. Very soon though, it's going to be compulsory to have dogs chipped, which costs in the region of £35. Nothing else's "taxed", as such, but if you start adding up vet's fees, food, grooming services .... oh boy, I think I'll have a hamster instead!! : )
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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Kellemora » 02 May 2013, 11:49

Hi Icey

I must have been typing too long on my last post under Bra Information. Seems I always get the message that "The submitted for was an Invalid" Buy a wheelchair and try submitting again!

I can't think of a single thing here, considered an asset, that is not taxed and retaxed annually.

However, they have raised the valuation limits, so now, things like a homeowner size riding lawn mower is no longer taxed annually. Unless you use it to cut a neighbors lawn for hire, then it becomes a commercial asset and is taxed.

Every great nation in history, has fallen when their total tax base crossed the 25% mark.
Here in the US, our total tax base has been well over 50% for decades and still climbing.

However, they do it in sneaky ways, so people don't really realize how much in taxes they really do pay.

Your average working class person falls into the 26% or higher federal income tax bracket.
This means that 26% of what they earn as a salary goes to federal taxes.

Many states also have income taxes. Missouri had a fairly high income tax, around 9% of your income. However, Tennessee has no personal income tax. Unless you are a business, then you pay commercial income tax. They make up for no personal income tax by having one of the highest sales taxes in the nation. Our sales tax is 9.250%

You already paid federal income tax on the money you earned. 26 bucks out of each 100 bucks leaving you with only 74 dollars of your hard earned income.
When you SPEND that money, you are retaxed on it at 9.250% Which means $6.85 of your 74 bucks goes to TAXES, or from your initial 100 dollars, you only have 67 dollars in buying power. IF there were no other taxes to consider.

If you own any assets, they are taxed annually.
Some items you buy, have additional taxes over and above the 9.250% previously mentioned. Taxes such as Excise Taxes and SIN Taxes. An excellent example of the SIN TAX is the exorbitant taxes added to a pack or carton of cigarettes.
A carton of cigarettes before any taxes are applied is under five dollars. After all the taxes are added to them, most brands sell for 30 to 45 dollars here. That's 25 to 40 dollars in Taxes on a single five dollar item. Liquor also carries a heavy SIN TAX.

If you shop in any store near our airport, there is a secondary tax added to the sales tax, called the airport tax. And it even applies to rental items like cars you rent at the airport.
Until I moved to Tennessee, I've never in my life had to pay TAX for services rendered.
On invoices, materials were always listed separate from labor costs, because labor costs had no sales taxes applied to them.
But the laws have changed. Now you pay sales tax on the whole bill, materials and labor costs.

Any FEE established by LAW is a TAX, no matter what fancy names they decide to call it.
Tennessee says they do not have Personal Property Tax on vehicles. That's a LIE, they just call it by another name, the term here in TN is "Wheel Tax." This is still an annual TAX on your personal property, regardless of what they call it.

A FEE to obtain ANY LICENSE, is still a TAX.
You have a drivers license, you PAY annually to KEEP that Drivers License. You may pay in 3 or 5 year increments, but it is still an ANNUAL TAX.
Associated with that Drivers License, you probably have a Car.
How many annual taxes are applied to that car.
Personal Property Tax? However worded, such as a Wheel Tax, paid annually.
What about a Safety Inspection FEE, also a TAX.
What about an Emissions Inspection FEE, also a TAX.
I'm sure you have License Plates, another annual TAX.
Do you have city stickers on your windshield? That's another TAX.
I'm sure your car has Tires on it! Do tires have an Excise Tax added to them, over and above the Sales Tax for those tires?
Now, if you Drive your car, you are paying Road Use Taxes, based on how far you drive your car. Don't say NO you don't. They are added to the cost of the FUEL you put into your car. You will find several taxes added to the cost of your fuel here in the states. There is the Federal Fuel Tax, the State Fuel Tax, the County Fuel Tax, and the City Fuel Tax. Combined, these are your Road Use Taxes. Commercial vehicles pay an additional Road Use Tax often exceeding 3 thousand dollars per year, over and above their Road Use Taxes added to their fuel costs.

People just don't realize how fast all of these taxes add up and eat away at their meager income.
If you are elderly and on a fixed income. It his very conceivable to end up paying out more in taxes that what little income you do earn. If you own any type of assets at all. As I mentioned earlier, my aunt had to sell her paid for home, because the taxes on it were greater than her gross income.

Across the big pond, you have a TV Tax, something we don't have here!
That is a form of Personal Property Tax. You bought a TV, you own it, yet it is taxed annually.
Here in the US, it is not uncommon for folks to have a TV in nearly every room of their house.
If we had a tax similar to yours, most folks would only own one TV and many older folks would be relegated to only a black n white TV as all they could afford to keep. If even that.

Again, any FEE required by LAW is a TAX. If you have to have a Rabies Tag on your pooch, that is a TAX on your animal.
You just mentioned that getting your dog microchipped will be mandatory. Then that too becomes a TAX on your animal.
I'll bet you pay taxes for Vet fees, grooming services, etc. You just may not know it.

Here's why! And also WHY we pay tax on tax on tax on tax.

Every business is burdened with many taxes. The only way a business can pay these taxes, is to pass them onto the consumer of their products.
I will use my own business as an example, because I know the figures for it. However, I will break it down to the actual tax per bottle of product I sell, to keep things simple.
As a business, although I pay a Use Tax, in wholesale industry, we do not pay what is called sales tax, that is only for the end retail consumer. However, we pay an equivalent tax called a Use Tax. I don't really need to explain that part, just show how the taxes are unfairly multiplied in commerce. And how we pay Tax on Tax on Tax on Tax, even though our constitutions clearly states, there shall NOT BE Tax on Tax.

OK, here goes.
I buy raw ingredients to manufacture my product. The price I pay for these ingredients, INCLUDES all the taxes applied by the various industries who supply me with those goods. Taxes are a part of a business OVERHEAD. I have no idea how much of the raw materials I buy is for taxes, so will have to start with only me. However, I can bet that all combined, there is at least a nickel per bottle of pre-paid taxes. So to be fair, I will add that nickel in my calculations below.

Purchasing of Raw Ingredients to manufacture my formula. $2.85 which carries $0.05 in taxes I paid to obtain them.
Packaging Supplies, Bottles, Cartons, Cases, Paperwork. $0.75 which carries $0.05 in taxes I paid to obtain them.
Labor to blend the formula and Package the Product. $0.75 no pre-taxes incurred here.
Amount of my Overhead that is in the form of Use Taxes. $0.18 per bottle sold.
Office and Equipment expenses (Overhead) excluding taxes. $0.22 no taxes here.
Profits, which are taxed as income tax. $0.25 per bottle. $0.02 per bottle in tax.
The price I sell each bottle to my manufactures representative is $5.00 per bottle
Of that $5.00, $0.30 was paid in taxes.
At this point we have Product Cost of $4.70 PLUS $0.30 added to the Product Cost for Pre-Paid Taxes.

Just as I have no true idea of how much I paid to my suppliers, as to the amount of Taxes included in the price I paid.
Nor does my Manufacturers Representative, know how much of that $5.00 he paid was for taxes.

And here is how the Taxes become Compounded to the point the end consumer is being Ripped Off in hidden taxes.

I'll run through this twice, then break it down, so it makes sense.
Manufacturer sells to Mfgr. Rep. for $5.00
Mfgr. Rep. marks product up by 20% and sells to Distributor for $6.00
Distributor marks up by 25% and sells to Wholesaler for $7.50
Wholesaler marks up by 30% and sells to Retailer for $9.75
Retailer marks up by 100% +freight and sells to Consumer for $21.00

Without adding any other taxes added in the chain of distribution, let's look only at the 30 cents in taxes I added, and what it costs the end consumer.
The 30 cent in taxes included in the price was marked up by 20% by Mfgr. Rep. adding 6 more cents.
36 cents hidden taxes paid by the Distributor is marked up 25% adding 9 more cents.
45 cents hidden taxes paid by the Wholesaler is marked up 30% adding $0.135 more.
$0.585 cents hidden taxes paid by retailer is marked up 100% adding $0.585 more.
The end consumer is now paying $1.17 to the Retailer for an initial 30 cent tax.

However, it is much worse than I've just shown above, because I have not added the taxes added by each company in the chain of distribution.

For simplicity, let us assume, knowing my tax was 30 cents, that the Mfgrs. Rep. tax is higher at 35 cents, the Distributors tax at 40 cents, the Wholesalers total taxes at 50 cents and the Retailer is probably like 75 cents.

Now watch how this compounds so fast.
My 30 cent hidden tax, marked up to 36 cents by the Mfgr. Rep. now has 35 cents more added by the Mfgr. Rep.
We are at 71 cents in hidden tax at this point. This is marked up 25% by the Distributor to $0.8875 who then adds his 40 cents in hidden taxes to his sale price.
We are now at $1.2875 in hidden taxes. This is marked up 30% by the Wholesaler to $1.67375 who then adds his 50 cents.
We are now at $2.17375 in hidden taxes. This is marked up by 100% by the Retailer to $4.3475 in hidden taxes, plus he then adds 75 cents for his hidden taxes. We are now at $5.0975 in hidden taxes on this product.

When you go to a store to buy my $5.00 product, which had 30 cents tax hidden in the price. You will be paying Sales Tax on the $21.00 the Retailer has marked as the selling price of my product. Of that $21.00, $5.0975 is in the form of hidden taxes, and only $1.95 of those taxes were paid to the government. All the rest becomes taxable profits within the chain of distribution. If your sales tax is the same as ours, 9.250%, then over 47 cents of what you are paying for the product is additional tax on taxes already paid. On the $21.00 sale price, your total sales tax would be $1.9425 or $22.95 total.

As pointed out above, the actual taxes that make their way to the government is only $1.95, yet you as the consumer have paid tax on tax on tax on tax on tax amounting to over $5.50 which is disgusting. Considering we are not supposed to pay tax on tax. Not only are we paying compounded taxes on top of taxes, those in the chain of distribution are earning taxable income on those excess tax increases hidden in the sale prices.

Now, if you take this into consideration, regarding every single product you purchase each week. For every $20.00 in merchandise you are buying, $5.00 of that is for compounded taxes you are paying sales taxes on.

Or very simply put, it is the End Consumer who is bearing ALL of the Taxes associated with Business and Commerce.
And to make matters even worse, the End Consumer is being bilked due to the Compounding of those Taxes.

Taxing businesses more heavily, and for more things than individuals, is actually taxing the End Consumers at far beyond what the initial taxes ever were.
Just ask yourself. Where do businesses get the money to pay these taxes?
It is added to the Cost of Goods Sold and passed on as hidden taxes.
And as I just proved, these taxes are compounded, with no benefit to the government or to you.
In fact, due to the compounding of hidden taxes, it's the End Consumer who is footing the bill for business and commerce.

Think about it!

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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Ice.Maiden » 02 May 2013, 12:39

Oh dear!! :(

Your system sounds extremely complicated, although, ours isn't far behind really.

Over here, you're allowed to earn so much without paying any income tax. It's not a lot though, but I'm unsure of the exact figure. I THINK it's £9,940. This is your personal allowance, and then over a set amount, PAYE comes into play (pay as you earn). Obviously, the more you earn, the more tax you pay. Then we have VAT (value added tax) at the rate of 20% added to everything, from food to clothes. You have no choice in the matter - it's usually added before it goes on sale, but often added at the tills in cash and carry warehouses.

Our savings are taxed as well - or the interest is.

The one thing that amazes me, is that you have to pay an annual fee to keep your driving licence! Over here, there's a fee for your provisional one, and then a further fee to send it off and receive your full one once you've passed your test, but after that, it's yours for life - unless your licence's revoked for any reason. Not sure what happens in that case, but it's possible you have to pay when applying for another one. I BET you do! :bleh:

However, believe it or not, I don't think it's a bad idea from the point of raising revenue. If our DVLA did that, and especially if they made folk re-take their tests every 5 years or so, it'd not only weedle out the poor drivers, but bring in a large income, which might keep other things down! Well, in practicality, it wouldn't, but it sounds good in theory. :P

You're spot on about the tax added onto cigarettes - AND spirits, in our case. The revenue from cigarette sales was colossal, but since they're trying to make us a non-smoking nation, they now have to find other ways of taking money from us to cover what they've lost! It doesn't make sense, but the truth of the matter isn't because of pollution or adding to the greenhouse effect, it's because the government are trying to save on NHS services. Thousands of people a year have to be treated for "smoking-related" diseases, and they'd rather not spend money on that, so are doing everything in their power to stamp the habit out. Scotland says that by 2034, they'll be a totally non-smoking country (so they think!), but doesn't anyone realise that the carcinogens spewed up from vehicles, foul chem trails from planes, etc., etc., etc. are doing just as much harm - if not more - than smoking a few cigarettes? :roll:

I think that you, us and most other modern countries are all having similar problems with high taxation - or at least in demanding some form of extracting our hard-earnt pennies. If it was just income tax, then fair enough, but it goes beyond the mark. Sounds as though some of your taxes are as ridiculous as ours!
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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Kellemora » 03 May 2013, 11:22

FWIW: Eating our processed foods is no worse than smoking manufactured cigarettes.
Here in the US, the FDA has approved over 599 chemicals that can be added to cigarettes, 63 of these are known carcinogenics and over 40 others are suspected carcinogenics.
Many of these same chemicals are found in our foods as well.

Do you know there has NEVER been a test performed on tobacco (not previously treated with chemicals) to determine if it has any suspected carcinogenics.

If you added those same chemicals that are in the cigarettes tested to a glass of water, that glass of water would produce the same results as the tests they conducted on cigarettes.

Now I'm saying that smoking is good for you. But it is no where near as bad as they make claim that it is.
People, like myself, who roll our own cigarettes from all natural tobacco, have no problems from smoking.
In fact, when I switched from manufactured cigarettes to rolling my own. My lung capacity increased from 55% all the way up to 75%, which is amazing, considering I have emphysema and COPD.

The cancer rates in this country are climbing exponentially. Most of the cancers CLAIMED to be caused by smoking are equally prevalent among non-smokers. So they blame it on second hand smoke.
So how do they explain the high number lung cancer deaths among non-working homemakers. Women who rarely leave their home, which is a non-smoking environment.

My fiance that died from a rare disease, never smoked, never held a job, no one in her home smoked, yet she had mild black lung disease, a disease that supposedly only affects coal miners. How did she get it?
I have a theory of how she got it.
She was a HEAVY scented candle user. Always had candles burning in her home, as did her parents. And around the holidays, especially Christmas, she could have as many as 50 to 100 decorative candles burning in her house.

In more recent years, after several studies of indoor air pollution took into consideration the burning of candles in the home. It was determined that burning a single candle, indoors, for one hour, produced more toxic chemicals in the air, than smoking two entire packs of cigarettes, during that same time frame.

The bans on smoking have nothing at all to do with health issues. The poly-TICK-ians merely use that unfounded claim in order to ATTACK our citizens. IF it were a health issue, they would ban the use of the chemical additives placed in manufactured cigarettes, rather than ban the cigarettes themselves.

MOST of the population that reaches the age of becoming a centenarian, were smokers and most are still smokers.
If smoking is so deadly, explain their longevity.

If you go back several decades, it was almost impossible to find someone who didn't smoke. Which means nearly everyone was exposed to second hand smoke for most of their lives. Yet the average life expectancy kept increasing over the years.
Better doctors or the ability to correct body malfunctions is naturally a part of that.
However, if you look at the statistics, deaths due to medical malpractice is 1000 times higher than deaths from guns.
And deaths from medications far exceeds that.

I'm going to side step here to a different topic and how poly-TICK-ians play the game of CONTROL over the citizens, add new laws and raise taxes and create fines.

I'm a Ham Radio Operator, have been since 1959.
Over four times since 1959, the Ozone Layer has become thick and thin again. It runs on a 13 year cycle!
And there has always been a Hole over the antarctic circle we Hams used to bounce our radio signals through.

The Ozone layer in question ranges between 12 and 20 miles above the earth. Nitrous Oxide and Chlorine are the two chemicals that can break down the ozone layer, IF it could ever get up that high.

Most OFFICIAL studies done on the Ozone Layer, only occur in less than a decade long study.
Poly-TICK-ians run on a four year cycle. The Ozone Layer on a 13 year cycle.

Mother Nature can adjust to the affects of man SLOWLY, over long periods of time. But she cannot react INSTANTLY to dumb things man does on planet earth.

Besides the high stratospheric ozone, that blocks UV, there is also low ground level ozone.
The very oxygen we breath is O2, when O2 is split apart, it becomes O which is Ozone.

Trees breath in Carbon Dioxide to produce Oxygen in the form of O2.

Our poly-TICK-ians desired even greater CONTROL over stuff, anything they could use as a scare tactic, to increase taxes and fines while increasing their control over things they have no business controlling.
These four year bozo's chose Ozone as their tool to scare the public into kowtowing to their bilking controls.

For 6-1/2 years, the Ozone layer gets thinner, and likewise for 6-1/2 years, the Ozone layer gets thicker.
Enter the four year poly-TICK-ians.
During the 6-1/2 year thinning cycle, these poly-TICK-ians broadcast their Ozone Scare. Enacted Laws, put BANS in place, and required expensive Licenses and added Heavy Fines. To use and handle Fluorocarbons.

Then, only two years into their four year terms, as the Ozone Cycle crossed its thinnest point and began getting thicker again. They all patted themselves on their backs, and brought about International Laws to further Ban Fluorocarbons worldwide.

After two years, these poly-TICK-ians are out of office and a new batch takes their place. The Ozone Layer is still thickening during their four year cycle in congress, so they too made harsher laws and increased fines and regulations.

About the time they were out of office and a whole new congress was in place, the Ozone layer peaked at its thickest and began its thinning cycle again. SUDDENLY, all the media and poly-TICK-ians never said another word about the Ozone Layer.
They began looking for another SCARE tactic to use. They have chosen CARBON this time. The lowest possible denominator of anything organic.

But let us step back and see what DAMAGE these earlier poly-TICK-ians have actually done.
The use of Fluorocarbons grew slowly over a long period of time. Mother Nature slowly adjusted to the amount of these contaminants in the air and used ground level Ozone to neutralize the affects of Fluorocarbons.

With the SUDDEN BAN of Fluorocarbons, Mother Nature could not adjust the production of Ozone downward fast enough.
So what happened. Just as fast as Fluorocarbons were banned, the Ozone levels in major cities, all heavily populated areas for that matter, suddenly rose to dangerously high levels.
It was so bad that many cities erected expensive electronic signs along the interstates leading into a city, telling what the levels of Ozone were on that day in their cities.
The Extremely HIGH levels of Ozone were NEVER blamed on the SUDDEN BANNING of Fluorocarbons.
No MEDIA ever associated the SUDDEN BAN with the SUDDEN increase in ground level Ozone.
The poly-TICK-ians however, to cover their MISTAKE, ORDERED all of the cities to CHANGE the Green, Yellow, Red values to much higher numbers, so as not to scare the people. What used to be Red was now Yellow, what used to be Yellow was now Green. So all the people FELT BETTER, and the poly-TICK-ians once again patted themselves on their backs.

The Stratospheric Ozone Layer is unchanged from what it was before the poly-TICK-ians got involved.
It still runs on its 13 year cycle, just as it has done for hundreds of centuries.
It still depletes at the same rate it has since before scientists began making measurements.
And it still builds itself back up at the same rate too.

In other words. The only things the poly-TICK-ians have changed is.
Higher ground level Ozone levels, continually increased taxes and fines, added Licensing and heavy controls on the population for using Fluorocarbons.
There has never been any laws or changes regarding the two primary chemicals that can adversely affect our Stratospheric Ozone layer. Nitrous Oxide and Chlorine. All potable water supplies and recreational water supplies contain chlorine gas that must be replaced every 24 hours, or be continually replaced to maintain stable chlorine levels. Drinking water and swimming pools are the heaviest uses of chlorine, which is a gas. Chlorine bleach is actually a lye holding minute amounts of chlorine gas in suspension. Used by consumers in laundry and for other minimal uses, when compared to the nations potable drinking water consumed daily.

One more side step:
Cars of the late 1960s. Emissions controls.
At that time, emissions controls were a CONTROL ISSUE that actually produced MORE Hydrocarbons in the air than ever before. It was like the later Ozone Scare. The poly-TICK-ians were not concerned about our air quality as much as adding more controls, taxes, licensing, and heavy fines.

Any pumps added to you car require energy to operate. There is no such thing as perpetual motion or powering a device without using some form of energy.
By LAW, all cars manufactured in the late 1960s had to have an Air Pump installed on them.
What this air pump did was pump fresh air into the exhaust system of the car.
More on that in a second.

I'm going to use an analogy here.
It is illegal to dump a gallon of paint into the river. Due to its density. Contaminants per ounce.
However, if you bring an empty five gallon bucket with you to the river, and scoop four gallons of water out of the river into this empty bucket, THEN pour your gallon of paint into the five gallon bucket and stir it up real good.
You can then dump that five gallon bucket into the river. You are not now breaking the law because the density of the paint, the number of contaminants per ounce is less than the law dictates.
No matter how many times you read the above, the end result is you are still dumping a gallon of paint into the river.

Now, back to the air pumps added to the cars.
If your car got 16 miles to the gallon without the air pump connected, and only 15 miles per gallon with the air pump connected. You are driving 1 mile less per gallon of gas, the exhaust of which is going into the air.
If you drove 150 miles, you would burn 10 more gallons of gas. Whose exhaust goes into the air.

However, just like the analogy of the paint above. The way the law established the measurement of emissions, was by measuring the flow of the exhaust and recording the number of carbon molecules per VOLUME of exhaust measured.
A car that without an air pump that may put out 900 carbon molecules of pollution.
By adding the air pump, it is now putting out 1000 carbon molecules of pollution.
However, these 1000 carbon molecules are now diluted with the air from the air pump, so the volume of air is increased by 20%, so the test results show it as only producing 800 carbon molecules of pollution.

The exact same analogy as taking water from the river, mixing your gallon of paint with the water, then dumping it all back into the river. They take fresh air, using a pump that requires energy, to blow that air into the exhaust pipe, so the measuring device that goes by Particulates per VOLUME is diluted.
When in REALITY, the cars of that era were actually polluting the air MORE than those without the Emissions Controls added.

Which brings us now, right back to cigarettes. No test has ever been conducted on tobacco.
The tests that were conducted on cigarettes were done using Chemically Laced cigarettes.
Of those 599 Chemicals approved by the FDA, 63 are KNOWN Carcinogenics.
It is only OBVIOUS that if you ADD a Carcinogenic to something, and then Test for that Carcinogenic, you WILL FIND IT.
Simply because YOU Put it in there before running the test.

Technically, the government cannot say that cigarettes are bad for you, while at the same time, saying that the very carcinogenics they claim are bad for you, they have APPROVED these carcinogenics as 100% SAFE through the FDA.
The smoking BANS are only a CONTROL ISSUE set in place by the government to increase taxes, licenses and add Heavy Fines.
IF they really were concerned about our health, they would BAN the use of known carcinogenics from being placed in cigarettes. But they CANNOT, because they already told us through the FDA that they are 100% SAFE.
So which is it?
Are the 63 KNOWN CARCINOGENICS 100% SAFE as Claimed by the FDA, who allows them to be added to cigarettes.
Or are they as deadly as the government now says they are by claiming cigarettes with these chemicals added.

That's two sides of our same government. One side saying 100% safe, the other side claiming they are deadly.
Which side is correct? In my opinion, Neither side is correct.

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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Ice.Maiden » 03 May 2013, 15:07

Hi Gary.

Interesting. With cigarettes, I'd say that the added chemicals are the toxic ingredients, not really the tobacco itself. However, tobacco contains nicotine, and it's a poison to the body. Being as though it's addictive as well, smokers crave more and more of it, and this's why the habit's difficult for many to give up.

It's not just the impact it has on inhaling it into the lungs, but what it does when it enters the bloodstream Gary. It destroys the blood circulation, and when it enters the brain, the enzymes are responsible for the pleasing effect which a smoke gives you, but the irritability which can occur when you try to pack in. The nicotine breaks down, and passes through the liver and kidneys, causing damage, as well as to the heart and all other organs.

The chemicals allowed into cigarettes are hideously toxic - arsenic and polonium just for a start! Even the saltpetre in the paper's poisonous in the body, and I totally agree with you that some of these very same substances which are allowed in the production of cigarettes go into our food supply as well. I firmly believe that it's these things which're causing the huge rise in cancers and nerve and brain diseases.

As to the fluorocarbons, I agree with their use being banned - such as when used in propellants in sprays, or emitted from fridges and added to other ingredients to produce waxes. Although it used to consist mainly of carbon and fluorine, the molecules in particles from these fluorocarbons are too big to simply disappear. They build up in the air and when they get into rivers and streams, start to poison the fish because they can't breathe properly. These days, there are thankfully more and more biodegradable substances being used instead.

Farcical about paint being tipped into rivers isn't it?!! Mind you, anyone caught doing that should be in jail in my opinion - but then, look at the all the other chemicals which get in to pollute them.

I think you and I are on a mission here Gary!! It's disgusting what governments, drug and health authorities allow us to be exposed to, and then they bleat on about too many people becoming sick, and blame it on anything but themselves. This's one of the times when I agree that "money is the root of all evil". It certainly can be, and our poor earth's being plundered and ruined by a mere group of extremely greedy and ignorant people.

I agree with what you've said, and there's no end in sight until folk wake up and stand against it all. People dismiss groups like Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth as being cranks - but they're far from it. They're part of the group of us who can see what's going on, and rightly or wrongly, are just trying to preserve what nature's given us.
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Re: Apostrophes

Postby kg » 03 May 2013, 15:39

The aforementioned situations are all leading to circumstances which will be untenable to both the government and "the flock," alike. Though I'm sure I have no need of instructing you, I'll say it anyway.

We are more and more seeing people "not reporting" income realized "under the table," as it were...some of it intentional, and some through ignorance of our convoluted tax laws. While "ignorance of the law is no excuse" is one of the tenets of our system of jurisprudence, how can a person possibly know the totality of the law, when even lawyers don't know it? Even the courts themselves contradict each other in their interpretations of the various and sundry laws passed for one purpose, but used for others despite the original intent!

Those who flout the tax laws do so at their own peril...again, intentional or not...but more and more, it is becoming a matter of sheer survival rather than that of greed. That small amount of additional, under-the-table income many times makes the difference between eating and being able to stay in your residence, or becoming indigent and an additional burden on society.

In the end, we may be forced to adopt a system of barter, where "goods/services" are exchanged for "goods/services." This will place additional burdens on "we, the sheeple" and become unacceptable to those in power. I'm sure that, should this occur, the "Poly-tick-ians" will find some way to replenish their supply, like imposing a "breath tax." Not paying the breath tax will make it illegal for you to breathe!
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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Kellemora » 04 May 2013, 08:43

Hi Icey and Glenn

I agree with going green whenever possible, and when and if it works.
But then too, some of the things currently considered green, really aren't.

We have a lot of man made chemical combinations out there that could not possible occur naturally, so by the same token, they cannot break down naturally either.

However, the governments don't care much about any of that, or reality even. They only keep looking for more ways to ROB from the people.
It is impossible for man to stop the natural decay of all things organic. We may slow down the process to some extent using methods of preserving, including freezing, etc. But given enough time, all things organic will break down to its most basic component.
Running out of things they can control and tax and license and fine, the governments are now looking at Carbon, the least common denominator of everything organic.
I guess next after carbon they will tax sunshine.
FWIW Glenn, they already TAX the air we breathe, hi hi.....

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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Ice.Maiden » 04 May 2013, 12:34

Well guys, I think we're all talking sense here. We - and others - know what SHOULD be put right, but how and when's another problem. All you can do is to take care of yourself and your family to the best of your ability.

We can shout until we're blue in the face about taxation, blah blah, but it isn't going to be easy to turn the current systems around.

I'm happy to say that the Independent Party made huge headway during Thursday's local elections - enough to start worrying the Big Boys, because they now have a chance of actually getting in. I've reserved judgement so far, but I can see that they have genuinely good ideas for helping the economy, as well as easing the pressures on ordinary folk. It seems very strange that our Pm made an announcement straight afterwards, admitting that they've made mistakes within their own party, and that they need to start listening to what the public wants, instead of blustering ahead. It shows how worried they are. Labour've said almost the same thing as well, but I think it's too little too late. UKIP aren't made up of old Etonians who've never done a "proper" job in their lives. They understand what's needed, and're coming up with ways of implementing it.

They're planning on doing what Norway and other small countries've done, and believe, as I do, that we can trade without having to pander to EU rules. Coming out'd save us millions and millions of pounds. We'd trade with the US, China - and anyone who we can share good deals with, along with bringing back home-grown industries. It's not a pipe dream, it's possible. Income tax might have to rise slightly, but other taxes'd come down. No one'd mind paying a bit more if there were jobs to be had. They know that there's a lot of money to be made from shale gas - and we have it. Bring it on, I say, and let's stop all these colossal payments to Brussels. That alone'd keep us going. Multiple millions are given to them every single week. Over a year, the savings'd go towards things which we really need. I see a spark of hope! David Cameron's already trying to back-track quickly. He's promised a referendum before the next general election - something which the British people want - but says it might take slightly longer. Ha! False promises made on the back of a party who know they're starting to quiver. There's been no one until UKIP who's challenged all the policies, but now it's happening, the biggies are running scared. UKIP want to bring back Grammar Schools as standard. Our education system's still in turmoil because of all the changes which keep being made. A whole generation of school children've been left drifting, and it's time to go back to basics and bring back the system that really worked. I could go on and on, but I think they'll have my vote next time.

I don't know a lot about American politics, but, I think that your President's trying to make good changes as well, what with Mexican trade ideas and, hard though it is, trying to appease both sides over the gun law debate. I was reading yesterday that things are starting to look up again for you. Good. It may take a while, but because of the way that things've been allowed to go, it can't all be changed in the blink of an eye. We need the US anyway, so I hope that the economy improves and we can exchange ideas which'll benefit both of our countries.

As for going "green", it has to happen Gary, before we totally mess the planet up. We have to cut down on poisonous emissions, stop polluting the water and soil and generally have more respect for what we've been blessed with.

There are ways and means of providing fuel without damaging the land and oceans, and what the oil companies've done up in Alaska and such places is nothing short of criminal. The whole thing's not to provide a commodity, but to make money for the owners and investors - at the expense of everything else.

What a shambles, but eventually, we might see signs of real progress. We have to hope.
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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Kellemora » 06 May 2013, 12:12

Going to toss a wrench in the works here.

If you built a brick wall around the equator (assume the distance is 25 thousand miles).
And each brick is exactly 1 cubic foot, 12x12x12 inches (no mortar joints and each brick weighs exactly 150 pounds).
The wall shall be five feet tall.

How much more would the earth weigh?

My only point in the above question, assuming you got the answer correct, is:
What do we have here on planet earth, that has not already always been here?

Man can combine ingredients and use processes of manufacture that can create things that would never occur naturally.
But even so, they have to use stuff that is already available to them, stuff that existed since the beginning of time.
Stuff that if dropped into the core of the earth, would revert back to its natural states, regardless of what was done to it.
It would by necessity, break back down into its original elements, the least common denominator.

I often use this same analogy when folks begin talking about running out of landfill space.
When viewed globally, there can be no landfill problem, because there is nothing that exists that was not here to begin with.
The problem is one sided distribution chains, and that is the only problem.
You can't empty a 75 gallon aquarium into a 10 gallon tank and expect it not to overflow. Simple math!
Yet our overpaid engineers try to do this exact thing by building levee's and floodwalls to reclaim the floodplains.
The floodplains are there for a reason, to handle the excess water.
Man does not have the capability of condensing water into a smaller area than what it would normally consume.
You simply cannot fit 750 million gallons into a 10 gallon hat, it won't fit. And when the levee breaks, the onrush of water does exponentially more damage than slow rising flood waters ever could.
Homes that stood through heavy floods for over a century, were washed away instantly after a levee to protect them was built and breached.
But those in power will never understand the simplicity of it all and try to defy the laws of nature.

When people congregate in an area, they upset the ecological balance of the immediate area they are in.
This is expected. They bring things into their area that were not there before, and this higher concentration of things does pollute the area. And on an ongoing basis. It lingers in the area and spreads outward to some degree.
A volcano can erupt thousands of miles away, and its smoke and ash reach great distances.
But it is not normally on a continuous basis, as happens in a condensed city.

So, if you want to concentrate yourself in a city, and bring all kinds of pollutants into that city for your conveniences, then yes, something must be done to reduce the amount of pollution you are creating in a confined area.
But those same laws should never apply to those in the sparse mostly uninhabited areas where such pollutants are not being concentrated to the dangerous levels found in a confined area. It simply is not logical.

One wouldn't want to run an open incinerator in the heart of a major city and contribute more pollution to that which is already there. It's already grossly overburdened. But a ship in the middle of the ocean, firing up its incinerator, no matter how much black smoke you see pouring from its stacks. Is not contributing to the pollution problem of a city thousands of miles away. Soot from organics is carbon, everything organic breaks back down to carbon. And there is nothing man can do about it. Of course our governments will tax it as much as they can, enact laws, slap fines, create licenses, etc. all over something of which they have absolutely no control over. And the sheeple will let them!

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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Ice.Maiden » 07 May 2013, 06:52

Hi Gary.

Yes, I agree with you that what we have on or in our earth's always been there, but the fact is that there are so many synthetic and poisonous chemicals - or, when mixed with things PRODUCE poisonous chemicals, that they're unable to break down and/or become harmless for years.

Once upon a time, fires could be lit or natural fires dissipated into the atmosphere without noticeable danger, but with the amount of people on the planet these days, now all contributing to pollution in some way, the build-up of toxic substances is getting out of control.

You give examples of pollutants in remote and open areas not causing any harm, but they do. Each of these particles rise upwards and come back down with the rain, thus polluting the ground and waterways. The pollutants may not be concentrated in such quantities as are found within cities, but take, for instance, over here where chemical companies allow toxic fumes to belch into the air, day in, day out. Some of these places've been deliberately sited away from main habitation, but the wind carries the fumes for miles. It can be smelt, and inhaled from miles away as well.

If you set up the same chemical manufacturing unit in the middle of the rain forest, those same particles are going to pollute the atmosphere around them, and cause damage to plant life - thus affecting the entire food chain, and even if that was considered to be reasonably safe to the rest of us, you don't find these manufacturing plants in those sort of places anyway, apart from where indigenous groups of people might be manufacturing cocaine or heroin and using chemical processes.

You mention ships out at sea, but oil slicks caused by tanker accidents and the dumping of rubbish resulting from the routine operations of ships, from illegal activities such as releasing into the sea the oil residue from bilges or oil sediments from the tanks, are major sources of pollution from hydrocarbons. Almost half of the pollution at sea's caused by crude oil and other refined products coming from maritime traffic.

Lack of adequate waste reception facilities in ports to deal with waste, the large number of old vessels whose systems can't treat these products on board or can't retain them until they can be discharged at reception centres, mean that every year, thousands of tons of hydrocarbons are dumped in our oceans, poisoning marine life and therefore having a huge impact on the food chain again.

With regard to landfill sites, they're going to be of huge concern very soon, and this's why monitoring takes place to see how much methane escapes. Most, but not all, of the waste which goes into these sites, degrades in time, but plastics can be there for years and're causing huge problems. The methane can be tapped to power turbines, but most's released into the atmosphere.

I could go on and on about pollutants and the problems which face us when trying to reduce them to a minimum, but the fact remains that because there are so many of us, and pollution's increasing, we need to come up with ways of not only getting rid of it, but to devise energy sources and things in every-day use whose residual waste's harmless.
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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Kellemora » 07 May 2013, 10:11

Hi Icey

I'm not disagreeing with you, on the fact that man is creating all kinds of new pollutants, many of which find their way into the air or water, and they do not break down like natural products would. And we do concentrate these contaminants in ever spreading areas, that can spread only wider and drift further distances.

Many if not most of these man-made chemical combinations are serious and deadly problems.
They are used in such a way that they do affect our air and water and plants and animals, and us.

We know better, and still do it, it's called for conveniences.
But Mother Nature will not be fooled. She will thin out the population that is destroying her land.
It could be by letting us poison ourselves too!

Where did oil come from?
I'm serious here. Where did oil come from?
We know it comes from many sources.
Fish, Animals, Plants, some living, some dead, some dead for eons.
We have fish oil, whale oil, dinosaur oil, corn oil, cottonseed oil, peanut oil, etc. etc. etc.

We have underground oil reserves, assumably from dinosaurs, just sitting there.
Now whether man pumps it out of the ground for our use,
or a massive earthquake breaks an oil reservoir open, spewing it into the ocean
or a volcano erupts through an oil reservoir burning it all up at once.
The fact remains, the oil is still there, in one form or another.
Either still in a pocket, so we can access it.
Spilled into the Ocean by Mother Nature herself,
or ignited and burned, again by Mother Nature herself.

No matter how you look at it. The oil is here already. The spills are here already. The burned residue is here already.
The only difference man has made, is they MOVE these conditions around to different areas of the globe. And in many cases, concentrate them in populated areas, where it is much more noticable.

A beautiful white beach everyone uses for recreation purposes, suddenly becomes a mat of black tar.
Man caused it! Shame shame shame.

Another beach, probably inaccessible to man, unless they commercialize it for recreation,
Also became a mat of black tar, when an earthquake spilled oil into the ocean.
Doesn't even make page 37 of the newspaper, because it didn't affect recreation lovers or a populated area.

I remember Mnt. St. Helens vividly, because it highly affected a product we used in our business.
The current crops we relied on, were severely damaged from ash.
Later crops were anemic to say the least, because the land was poisoned by the lye produced by rain flowing through the ash and from the pollution in the air. An entire industry had to relocate away from the area to produce salable crops.
Man did not do that damage, Mother Nature did.

But history has proven, when man locates themselves in a confined area, the resources dwindle fast.
They reach out further to bring those resources into their area. Then they have the waste to deal with.
Diseases increase until they reach a point where the whole civilization suffers, then disappears.
The Aztec's, Mayan's, Incan's, are a few we know about. But there were many more before and after who no longer exist.

We have gained intelligence over the years, and have learned what wiped out many of these civilizations.
And thankfully, we are trying to prevent it for our own civilization, but only in a few ways.
The main thing that destroyed most of these civilizations was not from pollution, they were not poisoned.
Their governments actually created the diseases and brought about starvation.
Using one simple tool. The greed of Taxation.
Every great nation that fell, occurred when their tax base crossed 25%.
Governments controlled the money and the economy and when they fell, so did the availability of food.
With no food, and no infrastructure, crime and diseases wiped everyone out.

We are headed in that direction right now. Our government cannot sustain the false economy with FIAT Money that is quickly becoming worthless. Without money, there will be no commerce. Without commerce there will be no food. Without food and sanitation, disease will take over. The Late Great United States will appear some day in archeology and history books of some future civilization.
And they will shake their heads at our stupidity as we did of civilizations before us.
Then turn around and do the exact same thing to themselves.
Mother Nature really is in control. And our days are numbered!

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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Ice.Maiden » 07 May 2013, 11:11

You make so many good observations Gary. Yes, I agree with you yet again. I also understand the other things which you point out. I may not always share your sentiments - and facts - but yes, I'm interested in what folk have to say on these matters. It's not too often that you find people with enough intelligence to understand the problems, or even to discuss things at length. I've had some fab conversations with you, Glenn and one or two others, whether here within the forums or privately, and it can be like a breath of fresh air sometimes, because I take in what everyone says and then consider it myself.

I'm still relatively young, I have a lot to learn, but it's because I care about important matters that I like to listen and read. I don't think that I'm always right, but my views might come across in that manner. Apologies, if so. In some instances, I know that I have my facts right, and so then offer an opinion, but I can also respect how others view the problem or topic and gain insight into the thinking/logic behind their statements.

I'm not always so serious of course, but I don't share a love of prattling on about "nothing", if you understand. I'll have a joke, act silly, but I'm not one of those females who like nothing better than discussing the latest soaps on TV, or who's had Botox, etc., etc. Alright for a few quick comments, but it's meaningless to me. Talk about something - anything - but let it give rise to a valid discussion or opinion afterwards. Some people seem to have minds which just live for the moment, or they can't string more than a couple of sentences together. I get bored with stuff like that. There are a few forums on here where it's done - and I own up to it as well - but sometimes replies beg amusing comments. Eventually, we revert back to the topic in hand, but I think this "conversation drift's" a very British thing. Over here, we all do it; even politicians. Serious one minute, going off at a tangent or making a joke the next - but always with the original issue in mind to come back to.

Anyway - yes! Our days are numbered, but I have faith in there being a few pockets of people who'll survive any world catastrophe, and who'll start all over again - hopefully, next time, with a bit more common sense. Then again, the human being's probably wired to be greedy and disrespectful to what nature's given us. Our so-called higher intelligence's helped us in no end of ways, and yet holds us back in others.
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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Kellemora » 08 May 2013, 09:48

Hi Icey

Many, make that many many years ago, when I was attending college up in Canada, and serving on the Grow Food Mission Trips. Besides those who desperately needed our help, due to other outside influences messing up their ecology. There were also villages, small towns and independent cities. None ever big enough to be found on a map.
As impossible as it seems, there was a thriving small town, fairly modern by their standards, but still operated in a tribal fashion, yet not communal.
This is going to be really hard to explain, so I don't know why I'm attempting it.

I'm sure they learned from their mistakes elsewhere, before they began building their new little town.
But Sanitation was at the very top of their list of most important aspects they had to control down to a gnats hair.
After sanitation came food and farming, followed by dairy and cattle.
As odd as it sounds, Pure water came after all the above in order of importance, as far as their legislative body was concerned.
As long as they took care of Sanitation problems first, their water supply was not in jeopardy.
Now realize, we are in the middle of a jungle here, not in a densely populated metropolitan area.
The next nearest cluster of humans downhill or downstream as the case may be, was well over 30 miles away.
No one to their north or upstream, other than isolated families, for over 100 miles.
Yet only 40 miles due east was a major city, major for that area anyhow. Modern.
They obtained a considerable amount of goods from this major city for sale in stores in their small town. But not things we would think they would find important. It was mostly clothing, implements, and various condiments and daily foodstuffs. No junk packaged foods as we see on our store shelves. In fact, they only stocked what we would have found in our grocery or mercantile stores 150 years ago. If that helps to picture a store here.

Within the area of this town, you would not find any waste, from food, humans or discarded products.
Human waste was not used in any of their farming areas either.
However, they did have an open dump far outside the city where most of their waste did go.
Considered awful by today's standards, but not much unlike the city dump of my grandparents era.
Except, nothing easily compostable went into this dump, and certain areas of it were like fire pits.
It was downhill from the town. Also, the human waste area was downhill and further than the dump.
It was still open sewage, but contained in like lagoons, so they were self-acting, and nearly odor free.
Today, we still have parks and some subdivisions that use the lagoon type of waste disposal.

All farms that contained livestock. Dairy and meat farms, were located to the sides of the town, on the same elevation.
All farms for produce, fruits, vegetables and the like, foodstuffs, were to the north or uphill from the city.
Besides the main river that flowed to the west of the town, another smaller river flowed to the north and provided irrigation to the farmers, before turning south again on the east side of the town. Plus several other smaller creeks and watersheds.

They had two separate water systems that fed into the town, one filled cisterns and was used for drinking water. And death to anyone who used it for anything else. A second was used for water for animals, bathing, cleaning clothes, etc. Water from the first could be used to water animals, however a bucket used to obtain the water, if used for animals, could not be dipped into the drinking water cisterns. Both supplies of water were from the same source, the north river, so there was no difference in the quality as it entered at one end of the town.
But by the time it made it through the town, the one supply used for washing and the like, was no longer clean water.
The drinking water supply of troughs, cisterns and the like, after the flow left the city, it dumped into the west river.
But the one used for washing clothes, bathing and other things, that water became divided and sent into the lagoons.
Beyond the lagoons was a large flat area, something like we would call a flood plain, except it was still on the hillside.
Water from all the lagoons emptied across this large flat area, before forming a small creek that led to a small river that fed into the west river.
We were down at this juncture where the small river fed into the west river and the water flowing into the river was clear and had no odor. I wouldn't drink it though, knowing where it came from, hi hi.....

I didn't want to get into the gross part, but I guess I should. A side channel of water, taken from the second water supply for cleaning, was tapped and led to behind the buildings. Basically, between the shops area and the residential areas. It fed directly into the main or large lagoon. This is where all thundermugs were emptied and rinsed. Although not all human waste was discarded, they had a major use for #1 in their leather tanning huts. And heaven only knows what other uses they had for it, hi hi.....

I enjoyed those trips, although our work was not in these small slightly advanced towns, we were usually out in the tribal areas, teaching them how to farm in rock and sand. The poorer a tribe was, or the more shunned actually, the worse the land they were forced to live on. Some lived where there was nothing but rock and sand, where very little would grow.
A dead oasis of rock and sand isolated inside of a pocket within the jungle. As here, money and power rule each area.
I have no idea what it is like there today. I'm hoping things have improved over the last 40+ years.

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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Ice.Maiden » 08 May 2013, 12:10

Yes, I hope things've improved over the years as well. I think everyone deserves good sanitation and drinkable water. Forests actually provide clean water, but when you have clusters of habitation in arid and bad conditions, something has to be done to try and prevent the outbreak of diseases.

Wandering off here, but at the moment, we're being flooded with requests from charities wanting to sink wells in such places. TV ads galore, saying that just £2 a month can keep these wretched villages running safely and provide clean water for the inhabitants. Over the last decade, the UK alone's sent millions - I dare say billions - in aid to these poverty-stricken areas. This should've been enough to keep them all in clover, but once you've taken out huge "admin costs" and accounted for corruption, very little's actually arrived at its intended destination. Terrible - but this's how life goes. Even so, many villagers've been helped, and are now managing to cultivate crops and eke out a living which halts the number of previous deaths from thirst and starvation. Their own governments should do this, but they don't, so countries with an ounce of compassion're sending what they can, to help those in dire need. Admirable, yes, but I sometimes wonder if it's worth it, because in all the years that everyone's tried to help out, you see very little in the way of things having made these lives richer. By now, each villager should have proper housing, been able to open flourishing businesses and be trading their crops with other tribal villagers, but despite huge amounts of money being raised for them, the best we can see is drinkable water for the few, and a few more animals being kept. Now and again, churches and schools've been built, but money for that's come from separate donations, so where's all the cash gone to? I think we both know the answer to that, and in Africa in particular, these villages are often razed to the ground by opposing tribes, so it's all been for nothing. : (

What you did, by going to see some of these places for yourself was brilliant. Every bit helps, but sadly, without much education, these people are unable to manage their own affairs very well. The ones who do, are often the "forest people" or the very tribal ones who've maybe traded for implements to make their lives easier. They seem to manage fairly OK because they've stuck to their old ways, but it's the villages which we try and "westernise" which still seem to have problems.

LOL - had to grin about the gross part of your post, but yes, human and animal waste's been used for all sorts of things - especially to help with the building of huts. If mud or clay's been unavailable, then another sort of "wattle and daub's" been used in its place! I saw how this was done once, on a documentary. Gross by our standards, but normal for some of the indigenous tribes-people. It dries out, and the smell you'd associate with it apparently evaporates - if that's the word - in the heat.

I think it's all interesting to learn about. It widens our knowledge of how some have to live, and occasionally pricks at our conscience! "Progress" annoys me sometimes though Gary. I've been into Asia and seen some examples of abject poverty, and yet sometimes, helping these people just serves to make them reliant on what's offered. I was more than upset to learn that in one place, lepers were removed from the streets during the most "touristy" months. They were herded into compounds which resembled poor prison camps, so as to keep them out of sight and to stop them from begging.

I stayed at one place, helping to organise games for the children and to do things for the elderly and infirm who could hardly manage to stand. It broke my heart to know that I'd be going home soon - back to all the comforts which these poor souls perhaps couldn't even dream about. I won't go into it, but my OH went to see about buying some land which could be farmed by these people. Today, I'm happy to report that orchards now flourish there, and these people have a business going. A drop in the ocean though, isn't it?
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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Kellemora » 09 May 2013, 15:07

Hi Icey

It breaks my heart to know all of what we accomplished was undone in only one growing season.
The people who worked so hard, saw their crops trampled, if they made it to near harvest, everything was stolen and then trampled.

But is it really much different here? I buy a derelict inner city house, install all new wiring and plumbing, only to find when I return after the weekend, that someone broke in and stole every inch of copper from the building, and vandalized as much as they could while in there. Stupid stuff too, like throwing bricks through new drywall. Burning a fire in the middle of the living room, destroying the new flooring.

They have become worse than animals, and most get more than we make in government dole given to them on a silver platter, which they also steal to sell.
Many of them spend more effort in plundering and robbing, than it would take to get an honest job.
Which throws an area into even further decline.

While I only get 700 bucks a month in social security, after paying into it my whole life.
We have folks now who have never paid into anything, drawing in excess of 3 grand per month in various sources of government dole. Many get free housing and tear it down as quick as they can.
Back home we built a massive new apartment complex for the poor, needy and homeless.
Within only five years, the entire little city was uninhabitable.
Try to help some one, and they have absolutely no appreciation and only want more and more and more.
Today we have entire generations of couch potatoes who do nothing but live off government dole.
Yet they can afford all the expensive luxuries those of us providing that funding cannot afford.
Many drive a Lexus or more expensive, have the latest and newest cell phones and electronic gadgets, the largest TVs and most expensive home computers.

When Ruths insurance capped out, we couldn't even get her medicines at a discount. Nor could we get any type of assistance with anything. I'm the wrong color! Or more aptly put, White is NOT a color and you have to have a color to get assistance.

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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Ice.Maiden » 09 May 2013, 18:30

I DO agree with you. It seems vastly unfair that hard-working people should struggle all their lives to make life better for themselves and their families, only to see some slob of a person who has no intention of working, reaping the benefit of part of our taxes.

I've spoken to a lot of people about this, including the "scroungers" themselves.

Most people WOULD work, given the opportunity to find employment which pays a living wage, but here, it's not easy. People used to rely on factory work and the pits. Everything's closed, so shops and other businesses've had to go as well. I see youngsters with an armful of qualifications chasing after bar and waiting jobs. This shouldn't have to be the case should it, but in our small country, there can be - and is, as my friend saw for herself - 1,500 people going after just 8 jobs which became available recently. It's disheartening before you even start!

Now as with in the US, we also see people who've never done a day's work in their lives, yet manage to run cars and have the latest gadgets, etc. Common sense tells you that state hand-outs do NOT pay for these luxuries, and there's no way that our unemployed get the equivalent of $3000 a month. Yes, if you take housing benefit and Council tax benefit into consideration, it can be easily top that amount, but as for hard cash, no. A single person over here gets less than $36. 50., and if a couple claim, it comes to even less than two single amounts added together. So, in order to have all those luxuries, it stands to reason that they're being obtained by crooked means, or someone somehow manages to obtain credit and must have debts coming out of their ears.

I DO know of more than one unemployed person who's managed to furnish their homes nicely and to run decent cars - after they inherited a bit of money. They didn't waste it. They spent it on making their living spaces look nice - and spent it quickly before the government bodies found out and lowered their benefit entitlements. You can't really blame them for that. You're only allowed to have so much in savings before they cut your money, and tax you on any interest.

It's terrible when, as you say, people snap up cheap housing to try and renovate them, whether for living in themselves or to rent/sell, only to find that when they go back, vandals've had a field day. The kids are bored Gary, and often come from homes where no one bothers whether they're there or not, so they turn to crime, join gangs to feel as though they "belong", and basically know nothing else because their parents are probably like it as well.

Giving these people a good honest day's work isn't going to stop some of them. They can make more money from a single robbery than they'd earn in a week or a month, so where's the incentive to get out of the rut? This's where I think churches and youth centres used to do some good. There was respect, people were punished accordingly, children were taught manners, but with many mothers going out to work, the kids often have no one to come in to, no one to encourage and support them. Their parents are either too tired to be bothered, or don't know how. I think it all goes back to basics - encouraging couples to at least be together even if they don't get married (preferable) when they have children, good schooling, jobs, hands-on parents and grand parents who're willing to nurture their children and teach them right from wrong.

Luckily, there are still plenty of people around who believe as I do, and who bring their families up well, but some actively encourage their offspring to go out stealing and selling drugs and so on. It's an easy bet, and if they get caught, the punishments are a joke. They probably have a better life inside than out.

I think there ought to be rewards for those who work hard, but instead, they get penalised for it. If the unemployed saw that work brings dividends, and jobs were created to help them - and the country - they'd start to feel proud again. They could hold their heads up as equals amongst other working people, and being kept busy'd stop a lot of the idle attitude which's developed over the past few years. Over here, at least, we need to invest in more factories and manufacturing plants, even though it's cheaper to buy components from abroad. We could make our own clothes here and trade with like-minded countries. I know it wouldn't be simple, but surely it's best to take care of your own first, and to get the place up and running? It'd solve so many other problems, especially if they sorted our education programme out and stopped dreaming up laws which people find depressing and invasive. If you give to the people, they're going to give back, and then we'd all be better off and morale'd pick up.
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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Kellemora » 10 May 2013, 17:02

One of Debi's relatives, in the past two or three years, has had five cars stolen, his tractor, a brush hog, two trucks and too many other smaller things to attempt to count.

The way the government works here, they actually promote crime. Crime is what fuels their pockets.

Victims of crime never get any type of restitution, even when the thief is caught.

By the time the courts get done with them, they have no money left anyhow.

However, here, if you are a victim of a crime, YOU, the victim of the crime, must appear in court more than twice as many times as the criminal they captured. At the very end of it all, if found guilty, you can pay to file a claim to recoup some of your loss, after the person does their time. But only if you appear in court several more times to keep the claim active.
Those who did go to all of that effort, often only get back less than fifty cents on each thousand dollars of loss.

Before my home town became a city, when it was still under home rule, full restitution must be made to the victim first, then to the city, for everything except cash or chickens. Nobody could prove how much cash they had or how many chickens they owned. But almost everything else the criminal, if caught, had to make full restitution for.

A town near us, had similar laws to ours, except there was a fund to pay victims of crime immediately. However, due to false claims and reports, they stopped that as the city grew to include more outsiders. But they still maintained the full-restitution laws on their books, long after we became a city and restitution became impossible. If any money is to be had, the cities keep that money for themselves.

The sad thing about Knoxville, TN, is most of the cops here are more crooked than the main stream criminals. And I would say less than 1% of them even come close to obeying the laws themselves.
Back home, every cop toed the line, because we had the three strikes rule. If they were caught breaking the law three times, they were out of a job permanently.
I often wondered where they went to get a job after getting fired.
Well, I found them, most are here in Knoxville and surrounding areas.
Sad, very sad, when you can't even rely on the police to do their job, because they are and contribute to the problems.

One of the fellows that help my neighbor with his job from time to time, lives at the end of the street in the projects.
He is getting $1,850.00 per month in cash, plus food stamps, plus wicd, whatever that is, and his apartment is paid for through HUD and he is on a list to get a home through housing for humanity. He also gets several other things for free also. And he has never paid a dime into the system, at any time. If and when he works, it is always for cash under the table.

I've worked my whole life, paid into social security and all the other things deducted from our checks. Paid oodles of taxes for self-employment and other business related taxes.
I only get 700 bucks a month in social security, and out of that I have to pay all of my bills.
Most folks who have paid in as much as I have, get over 1200 per month, some as many as 1400 per month or more.
But the way they calculate it, they only average the last five or ten years, unless you jump through hoops to get even close to your fair share back. Remember, we paid into it, like insurance. And they do everything they can to keep you from getting what you are supposed to be getting back.

And what irks everyone is the Obamanation claims there was no cost of living, so what we get is frozen. Then he turns around and raises the amount taken out of our checks because the costs have gone up so much for them.
So what we get keeps getting less and less.
How can their be NO cost of living increase on one hand, and excessive cost increases on the other hand?
Makes absolutely no sense. Either costs went up or they didn't.

I'm quitting here before I blow my own fuse, hi hi.....

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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Ice.Maiden » 11 May 2013, 15:19

Hello Gary,

i can understand you getting mad at what you see happening around you. We see similar things all the time, and can't do anything about them much, but we DO petition, and if enough people send in objections (I think they have to receive 100,000 letters or votes, before the matter's discussed in Parliament), then sometimes, things get sorted, but it's no good moaning about things if you're not prepared to physically challenge the rules, or lack of them.

Taxes are a bind everywhere, but especially in the US and over here by the sound of things. We don't mind paying Income Tax. The country relies on taxation to function, but we object to the way our taxes are being spent when ordinary folk aren't getting much out of it. The Council Tax I keep talking about's, supposed to go towards our police, roads, libraries, street lighting, dustbin emptying .... and apart from the latter, the rest's mainly in chaos.

Councils used to employ folk to dig up the roads when cables needed to be repaired or inserted, but now they contract the jobs out and it costs more. Doesn't make sense. The same goes for building work done on Social Housing. Companies tender for the jobs now, and often make more of a mess than the original workers did, because they use the cheapest materials and don't bother about the little details.

Sorry to hear about the victims of crime over there. Here, it can take a while to get any compensation, but you CAN get it.

If, say, you lose stuff through a burglary, most folk are insured anyway, so there might be a bit of a wait while the assessor's report's looked at, but then your che
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Re: Apostrophes

Postby Ice.Maiden » 11 May 2013, 15:56

Hello Gary (please ignore the above! I started to type and then only half of it showed up and I couldn't delete it, so what I've typed below here's what was meant to show up!!). :shock:

i can understand you getting mad at what you see happening around you. We see similar things all the time, and can't do anything about them much, but we DO petition, and if enough people send in objections (I think they have to receive 100,000 letters or votes, before the matter's discussed in Parliament), then sometimes, things get sorted, but it's no good moaning about things if you're not prepared to physically challenge the rules, or lack of them.

Taxes are a bind everywhere, but especially in the US and over here by the sound of things. We don't mind paying Income Tax. The country relies on taxation to function, but we object to the way our taxes are being spent when ordinary folk aren't getting much out of it. The Council Tax I keep talking about's, supposed to go towards our police, roads, libraries, street lighting, dustbin emptying .... and apart from the latter, the rest's mainly in chaos.

Councils used to employ folk to dig up the roads when cables needed to be repaired or inserted, but now they contract the jobs out and it costs more. Doesn't make sense. The same goes for building work done on Social Housing. Companies tender for the jobs now, and often make more of a mess than the original workers did, because they use the cheapest materials and don't bother about the little details.

Sorry to hear about the victims of crime over there. Here, it can take a while to get any compensation, but you CAN get it.

If, say, you lose stuff through a burglary, most folk are insured anyway, so there might be a bit of a wait while the assessor's report's looked at, but then your cheque arrives pretty quickly after that, usually with no quibble.

There are ways of being compensated if you're a victim of violent crime, but yes, if a person goes to court, the victim can be made to feel as though they shouldnt've complained in the first place, and what's worse for them, is that the perpetrators either end up with pathetic fines and sentences, or get off scot-free anyway. It's an insult to folk, but according to David Cameron, this's going to be tightened up. I'll believe it when I see it.

Your social security system sounds similar to ours, but we have so many different benefits that folk are able to claim, that it's all being put under one umbrella soon, in the form of Universal Credit - which'll mean that some people no longer get what they once could, and a few'll be able to get more!

What's been objectionable amongst most people, is that for years, there's been a points system whereby people can get Council houses. I'm not being racist, sexist or any other "ist", but I can see why it goes against the grain to have young single parents being offered homes before those couples who're married and who've probably had their names on the waiting list for several years. It also seems to favour immigrants, gays and lesbians and those who might've come out of prison. I'm against no group or individual, but where young girls can have babies ad-lib and then be given homes (which a lot of them then move their latest partners into) ahead of decent young couples who probably go to work but haven't been able to afford a deposit on buying a place of their own, I think it's been badly thought out. It's discriminating against those who really want to work and get on, and in many cases, against our own.

There was a case not so long back, where a woman with 6 children came over here and installed in a home worth two and a half million pounds. Sixteen other residents were in homes costing £1m or more, in the same area. This was in Belgravia in London - an expensive area normally only available to those with money to buy such properties. It caused an outcry. There are families with 6 children who have to manage in 3-4 bedroomed houses in less expensive areas. This woman was living there on benefits for 3 years, and said that she didn't want to be moved. No wonder!! She was also provided with furniture, white goods and a car! Now you can see the unfairness of it Gary, and why folk moan.

I've been lucky in life, but it doesn't stop me from understanding things from these points of view, and I agree with them. We can't all be rich, and no one deserves to live in poverty, but it's the things which people see as favouritism that makes them so angry.

Our police are, in general good guys. People complain that there aren't enough of them on the beat, or their calls go unanswered. It's not the fault of the officers concerned. They have to follow orders, and because of cut-backs in all the forces, there now aren't enough who're available to deal with all the calls and the associated paperwork.

There's been some recent trouble with the Metropolitan force, who've been accused of not training properly, heavy-handedness and not following procedures. Given the areas they cover, and not enough officers, you're bound to get this sort of thing at times, but over all, they do a fine job, and corruption's not as rife as some like to make out. There are thousands of decent, hard-working police officers, and most try to diffuse situations without letting an incident become worse. I think they have to be quite tough in some areas of cities, as in any country, but then, they're facing tough challenges, mostly unarmed and only in one's or two's.

Just recently, a senior police officer's been fired, but these cases are rare, and in most instances, they can be trusted to do their jobs properly and with compassion.
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