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[split] Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 12 Feb 2015, 13:20
by Kellemora
forumadmin Note: This topic was split from another post that drifted off topic.

On our second mission trip, we had a moderately heavy bald headed fellow.
Before one of our stops, he was told he had to wear a bandanna and a hat.
He didn't mind and obliged the request.

We were sitting around in a group, hotter than blue blazes and he was sweating up a storm.
Without thinking he lifted his hat only long enough to wipe his brow and put the hat back on.
The bandanna was stuck to the hat so came off along with it, and right back on again.
Within that couple of seconds, more than half of those we were seated with jumped up and ran away, not to come back again.
We had to move on, because we would get nowhere after that incident.
They considered a bald person akin to the devil himself, hi hi...

Re: Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 12 Feb 2015, 15:52
by Ice.Maiden
That's wonderful! You see how aethetics awaken different reactions? Obviously this was a long-held belief by the tribe concerned. I find it fascinating.

Re: Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 13 Feb 2015, 12:03
by Kellemora
Many things have changed considerably at the mission sites since the late '60s and early '70s.
Sorta sad in a way too. Many have given up their centuries long customs and became more modern in dress, but not so much in economics.
The most visited mission sites have come to rely on the missionaries bringing things they used to grow or make themselves. I'm sure over the past thirty or forty years, many of their skills are now lost as the older generations pass on.
We are just as guilty, by providing saws, nails, and tools of all kinds. Woven wall huts became small cabins built of lumber while we were going. Some things helped, like garden tools, boots and shoes for those in sharp stone areas.
Some of the pictures missionaries brought back to show us, one might think they were in Hawaii instead of the African jungles. Modern clothes, houses, and in a few cases, small office buildings, and the equivalent of a like a booth style strip mall. Sorta like those we saw on the islands during our recent cruise.

We were careful in what amenity type items we gave to tribal leaders. Anything battery powered was a strict no-no, because where could they get more batteries when the ones provided went dead. We did give out a few crank-up flashlights. Lanterns and lighters designed to run on fish or pod oil, especially for those in deep cave areas was something they could use and reuse. Each lighter held six extra flints in the base, and as little as they were used, was basically a lifetime supply of flints.

Tin bowls, pitchers, cups, tall narrow buckets, ladles, and a few iron kettles were distributed from the second and third tier delivery groups. But we were even careful with how these were distributed.

I think I mentioned previously we built small covered pavilions for meetings and services. On my second trip over, about three years after the first, a couple of tribes copied our pavilion design on a smaller scale, and added weaved reed walls to make better huts for the elder tribe members.
At the time, I never considered whether this was a good thing or a bad thing. After all, we were there to help them advance somewhat, but without interfering with their ways of doing things.

Not familiar with the purpose or usage of a button. They somehow ended up with a case of buttons, and used them to make necklaces and other adornments. We had no idea where they came from, just that they had many buttons when we visited the second time.

Our biggest goal was achieved though, they knew to keep their water clean and waste away from the populated sections of an area. This we were glad to see. Trouble is, another tribe was always upstream somewhere, evidenced by floating matter in the water.

That was a lot of years ago now. I wonder what it is like now?


Re: Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 13 Feb 2015, 21:16
by Ice.Maiden
You've certainly had some fab experiences Gary.

I'm sure that the missionary work benefited these people in many ways, and yet in others, they must've taken a step back. As you say, many of the "old ways" are now lost, and scientists're hoping to find some still barely-untouched tribes deep in the jungles, who can help them with the medicinal properties of the many plants that we've yet to utilise.

If you take people out of their natural habitats by teaching them to farm away from their forest homes, much can be lost as the elders die off and the younger ones move into towns. I think it's a shame, and yet it also has benefits as well. The one DISadvantage is that these tribal people're now exposed to illnesses which were unheard of when white people kept out of the way. I hope that lessons've been learnt on both sides.

Re: Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 14 Feb 2015, 14:59
by Kellemora
I'm always afraid to talk about my experiences, and what I have gleaned from them, because many feel my most honest remarks are condescending.

Cultures evolve at their own established rate. This is how they become strong, unified, and in most cases thrive.

Referring now to animals only: When you remove an animal from its habitat and place them in a new element, they do not survive.

Referring now to indigenous populations: When you flood a small community with technology beyond their grasp, where they have no comprehension of how such things came to be, it can be disastrous to them.

Some people, like Leonardo da Vinci held a futuristic vision of what could be.
However, if you suddenly landed in the 16th century with your satellite phones, portable computers, flat panel TVs, and modern modes of transportation. You would not only scare the daylights out of the entire 16th century city, you would probably be killed as an alien. Not worshiped as a god as so many movies make you think.

We are missing the big picture when we think we can influence third-world nations and bring them up to our level of understanding. We can only try to teach our ways and impart our knowledge, and it will work for a select few, but not for the majority.

Trying to merge a sub-culture into an advanced culture has thousands of more failures than successes. It truly is an individual thing, which is not shared by the greater majority.
Even starting a sub-culture child from birth in an advanced culture society has proven time and again, there is no equal ground upon which to work, even when both are raised in the exact same environment.

Technology in our own culture is advancing at such a rapid rate, there are many in our own society who cannot keep up with the changes now, much less those new things rapidly appearing on the scene each day.

And this line will probably get me in heap big trouble.

You can take the child out of the jungle at or before birth, but you can't take the jungle out of the child within at least five centuries of assimilation. Very few will assimilate within only a few decades, but all the rest will take centuries before they begin to show hope, and probably close to a thousand years before they do become equal to others living in the same environment.

There is much more to knowledge than book learning and living the experience. Anyone can learn, but do sub-cultures have the ability to apply what they learned, no matter how long they have lived outside their natural environment?
History has proven, only a select few overcome the environmental barrier, even after generations of living within a culture once foreign to them and their heritage.

Our school system is one of the greatest in the world (or was I should interject). There is not a person born in the USA, who has not had the same educational opportunity presented to them. In fact, getting an education has been mandatory in this country for more years than I've been alive, and without cost.

We all arrived here over two centuries ago from different cultures, some from nearly equal cultural backgrounds and some from sub-cultural backgrounds. My point here is simply, we have all be raised together, provided the same opportunities (which some will argue were not the same), but the proof is in the pudding. We see a vast difference between advanced cultural societies offspring, vs the sub-cultural societies offspring, despite the fact all were raised in the exact same cultural environment.

Within the same culture, we have those who are smart and those who are dumb, those with advanced skills and those with artistic skills. But in all but a few cases, those who's heritage is from a sub-cultural background, no matter how many decades ago their ancestors arrived here, they cannot keep up. Sure they have some who are smart, and some who are dumb, but barring a select few, when looking at the entire sub-culture as a whole, lumping all of their smartest together, they are several generations behind schedule.

It is not their fault either. Simply stated, they are on a different and sometimes slower time line.

In this modern era, WHY do we still have peoples who have not advanced beyond their present tribal habitats. Why have they not advanced technologically speaking, along with the rest of the world?

Some say it has to do solely with numbers. A small group will never develop the skills of a larger group. Especially when they do not share knowledge with other groups. Communications is one key. But how accurate is it?

Why is tiny England, compared to the size of Africa for example, so far advanced?
Africa has more people, so that blows the 'solely to do with numbers' theories out of the water.
African tribes had communications skills which far surpassed those of early England or our Colonies, so communications during the early developmental years could not have been the reason.

For all we know, (said jokingly of course) communications could have started by the cave men, with One Ugh for pass the salt, and Two Ugh's for pass the pepper. But on a serious note, how and why did technology pass certain cultures by?
And on that topic, should we be taking our advanced technology to a culture where it is not only understood, but is more than likely harmful to them as a whole?

Nuff Said!


Re: Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 14 Feb 2015, 16:55
by Ice.Maiden
I hear exactly what you're saying Gary, but I think there're many factors in how cultures advance, or otherwise.

We have to look at how black people were taken away from the lives they knew, and became slaves. Most of them didn't get chance to be educated, and it's no different to over here really. People were brought in to do the menial jobs that no one else wanted at the time - cleaners, etc. These poor jobs didn't pay enough money for the immigrants to be able to live in fine houses, and they congregated in the cheaper and run-down properties.

When the first black student arrived at the high-class school that my brother attended, everyone gave him a wide berth for a start. He didn't speak good English, but he showed his prowess at sports and was soon friendly with the other guys. He obviously had the intelligence to get to this school in the first place, so became accepted.

I don't know how true it is that you can't teach these people the same as anyone else might be taught. I'd have thought that, given the right environment and opportunities, every person's as able as the next?

Black and Asian doctors and surgeons abound over here, so obviously they've benefited from education, whether obtained here or elsewhere, but where you have "ghettos" of large families, it's very difficult to drag yourself away from all that, whatever the colour of a person's skin. Some DO manage it of course, but parental attitude counts for a lot.

You or I might've always had the support and encouragement from our parents to do well, but for those with no skills, it's difficult to pass on a learning/work ethic to their children, so if opportunities're lost, the pattern continues. The children fail at school, and then don't go at all. Many don't even have the social graces needed to go on training courses, because their upbringing's made them almost feral. How do you teach someone who won't listen to instructions or haven't the will to learn basic reading and writing? It could be done, but there aren't enough skilled teachers - or school places - for many of these people, so they turn to crime or live in poverty, and the whole thing just repeats itself.

Then you say: "... WHY do we still have peoples who have not advanced beyond their present tribal habitats". Well, it all depends on where they come from. With so much fighting in Africa and elsewhere, education's frowned upon by militants and terrorists in order to keep control. By not allowing their people to advance, the few who're in charge can easily manipulate the masses, who're so displaced and ignorant that they'll do exactly as they're told. If these people were allowed to see how the other half live, the ones in charge'd lose all their power.

It's a sorry state of affairs that all human beings can't be treated equally, but it won't happen for a very long time.

Surprisingly, many tribal people own mobile phones these days, and some even have access to laptops, but they can't put their new-found skills to good use because they don't have the opportunity or have an understanding of the "outside" world.

Re: Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 15 Feb 2015, 12:29
by Kellemora
I probably shouldn't say this in public, but I find Asians to be more intellectual, and intelligent overall, compared to their same peer age groups in the US. They also have much stronger work ethics, and dedicate themselves to their jobs.

We saw this first hand in our warehouse districts back home. Where an American young man was trying to find ways to do as little as possible without getting fired, slacking whenever possible. An Asian of the same age not only did his work, but looked for other things he could do.

The American opens a candy bar and drops the wrapper on the floor, let somebody else clean it up.
The Asian is the one who picks it up and places it in a trash receptacle as he passes.
He sees boxes on the shelves not aligned properly or sticking out a little further than they should, he nudges them back in place while walking down the aisles.

In our own greenhouses, repotting rooted cuttings. Most workers just stuck them in a hole and gave them a tamp and dropped them in the trays. An Asian was more precise, the hole is dead center, the cutting perfectly straight, properly tamped, and placed in the tray, always doing more than the other workers.
Looking down a long bed one appeared haphazard and the other in perfect precision, with many more pots set in place.

When the Asian gets advanced to a higher position they rightfully earned, the slower more sloppy workers complained of favoritism for the minority workers. We looked at individuals, their quality of work, etc. It didn't matter of they were black, white, yellow, or red. Those who earned a promotion got a promotion, those who didn't, often continually got more sloppy and did less work. A few would even start problems themselves by purposely sabotaging our product lines.

Many of our younger hires, after working their way through the departments and learning all the aspects of the business, went on to start their own successful businesses. The slackers, well they continued going downhill and remained in low end jobs their entire lives. Although some did find jobs where they were grossly overpaid for what they could do, because the industry was known for overpaying their workers. Which is getting into a whole different topic.

Here's an interesting thought you'll like. In our type of work, women normally out-shined the men, and were on a par of excellence with the Asian workers. More precise in their work than any male employee.

That being said, contrary to popular belief, it is rare to find a woman who can do some of the work normally delegated to men. Not their fault, they are not built to handle some tasks. We always took that in consideration when assigning job duties. As I said, some could, but the women were faster and better than the men at the more delicate parts of the operation, and men were better suited for the moving of the heavy filled flats. Even so, if a woman wanted to do it all herself, we let her.


Re: Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 15 Feb 2015, 17:35
by Ice.Maiden
Yes, you make some good points there Gary, but I still don't think that laziness's inbred. In some African cultures, the "come day, go day" attitude goes back to their roots, where small villages can't provide the work for the menfolk, so they'll tend to "laze" around, whilst the women sweep out the huts, cook, wash and look after the children. Some work in the fields, but with that kind of environment, it's no wonder that their siestas're longer than normal! : )

Asian people DO tend to work hard, because the families all help each other, and their businesses pass on to the children or they start their own. They don't mind working long hours, but over here, white people DO just want set hours and then that's it for the day. In general, I think people in the US work far harder than they do in the UK, often staying on in their offices until late at night. Here, the sooner they can get out, the better. Then again, we probably have more leisure time with our partners and families, but this's just a generalisation. Obviously some folk work their socks off, whilst others can't be bothered.

Re: Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 16 Feb 2015, 13:02
by Kellemora
I probably shouldn't have used the word slackers or implied laziness.

I think some folks do not have the ability to develop work ethics, much less put them to practice.

Re: Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 16 Feb 2015, 16:59
by Ice.Maiden
Hi Gary.

I personally believe that it's down to what I said in the beginning. Everyone has aptitude unless they have a mental disability which prevents them from forward-thinking, but also, I think encouragement and support's needed.

We have many youngsters over here who left school with no or few qualifications. Their attitude to work's appalling, but they usually have no one who's set them a good example. If you don't show your children how to do things, and to show an interest in what they CAN do, this's the result - hundreds, if not thousands of young people who, most often like their parents, don't give a monkeys. The cycle repeats itself because these people find it difficult and scary to move away from their environments.

In another life, I would've liked to've been a teacher. I HAVE taught kids, and believe that all of them can do something. It's just finding what they're good at and having a novel approach to keep them interested.

Where you have children growing up in dysfunctional surroundings, they see no reason to change. They probably don't know how to. If someone lacks ambition but isn't encouraged, they're going to stay in that rut, but given time and patience, I don't think there's a child on this earth who can't learn something of merit, and if they receive praise for making an effort, then it's going to spur them on.

I think you often have to look at the upbringing of these people, and understand their mindsets. Lack of work ethics begats the same. How can kids be motivated by parents who display the same attitude, if they're not shown and encouraged?

Some folk, admittedly, find it harder than others. They may not have the intelligence to understand how education and jobs can help them, but all I can say is that I've seen some of my own efforts come to fruition. I helped a young girl who couldn't read or write. She refused to go to school because she knew that she'd be embarrassed and find the work too much of a struggle, so I took her under my wing and taught her the basics myself. Someone was showing interest in her, so, between a few lapses, she tried to please me and came on in leaps and bounds.

I physically took her to school and spoke to her teachers, and eventually, the girl was attending classes by her own volition. She left school and got a job; a poor job, but it was work non-the-less, so I encouraged her to look ahead and kept telling her that she could do whatever she wanted to do, but it'd mean digging her heels in. I then spotted a job vacancy which I knew she'd be good at. It entailed meeting members of the public. I wrote to the HR department and requested an interview for the girl, admitting that it was an unorthodox approach. They wrote back, she got an interview and they set her on, on a temporary basis (although in a different role to the one advertised).

They soon saw that the girl was outgoing and fitted the bill perfectly, so her job became permanent. They understood her difficulties and lack of formal qualifications, but what she lacked, they're now able to help her with, by way of in-house training courses. This young lady's still working there, and she's moved into admin. I couldn't be more proud of her than if she'd been my own daughter, but had I not seen beyond the "hopeless" future that she envisaged, she might've fallen by the wayside like so many of her old friends.

Providing a person has basic intelligence Gary, I believe that they can advance in the right direction, but there aren't enough people to help them, and when the odds're stacked against you, it's difficult to even think of working hard, let alone doing it.

Re: [split] Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 18 Feb 2015, 14:20
by Kellemora
Great information there Icey, and I agree with all of it!

Although I'm not considered a teacher, I did teach Votec for a couple of years.
My department was in carpentry, but I had a couple of students interested in supply plumbing, so worked with them after school. One picked it up like a duck to water, but the other, no matter how many times I showed him the same simple operation to perform, he never could get it right no matter how long I worked with him. The part I didn't understand about this kid is he did exceptionally well on every test. He knew what to do, but when it came to actually doing it, it was like he was totally lost. What I was teaching was not hard either. Things as simple as using a pipe cutter to to cut a pipe, or a swedge to expand a pipe end. At first I thought the pipe cutter was defective, since he ended up with a spiral down the pipe every time. I swapped with him and cut several pipes without a problem, and he was having the same problem with my pipe cutter. I took the time to show him where he was going wrong, and he over-corrected and only made the spiral go the other way. Now, if you wanted to cut a spiral, which you wouldn't, it is very difficult to get even. When using a swedge, he ended up splitting every pipe instead of only expanding the end. I couldn't believe it.
We had a metal cutting press, not an easy machine to operate. This same guy managed to make every cut perfectly, and with little to no effort. He just did it right the first time and every time. So I had him forget about plumbing and got him set up with the tool and die department. He landed a great job once he finished the course too. I only taught for two years, and he was still at the job the year I moved back home.


Re: [split] Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 18 Feb 2015, 18:41
by Ice.Maiden
Fantastic work you did there Gary!

I think there's probably a medical name for the type of thing you described, whereby no matter how many times a person's shown how to do something, they can never grasp it, be it physical or mental, and yet given a different task, they can perform well. Is it a lack of co-ordination or use of motor nerves, coupled with an inability to process the information which does it, do you think? I don't know, but I DO know that I get "mental blocks" where certain things're concerned, and others can't understand why I don't grasp something as easily as they might. I'm not talking about intelligence, but a lack of physical ability which either make folk laugh or feel irritated by.

Give me a bunch of wires leading from something. OK., I can see where they go, but if you then pull them out and mix them round, I'd have a heck of a job to plug them back in correctly. : (

I once spent a few hours in a friend's electronics factory. I was fascinated by the various processes that things went through in order to result in the end product. I asked if I could have a go and try my hand at wiring. All these people sat at a type of carousel thing, and as boards slowly moved past, they had a fistful of different-coloured wires that wound round and were tagged off. I thought it looked simple - and fun.

I managed 3 different-coloured wires (instead about 8) before the next board came along, and had to leave my feeble attempts because I was holding people up. Later on, I tried again ... and again ... but it was no good. I lacked the dexterity or whatever it is to do a job which was boringly easy to everyone else. Weird.

Re: [split] Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 19 Feb 2015, 19:52
by Kellemora
With my medical condition, I understand completely Icey.

It all depends how the synapses in our head are connected, what we can grasp easily, and which things become nearly impossible. So there is much more to how our headbone works than just trying to learn something. If our heads all worked the same, each of us could learn any talent, skill, or art.

Re: [split] Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 21 Feb 2015, 10:58
by Ice.Maiden
You make a valid point there, although I'm sure that with the right amount of patience and tutoring, most of us could do better than we already do.

I think boredom plays a part. If someone's not interested in something, their learning ability isn't going to be as rapid as for those who enjoy tackling the subject, so this's where I think specialist skills're required, to teach the same things but in a different or round-about way. Once a principle's learnt and repeated, those things aren't easily forgotten. It's just a case of finding ways to make them lodge in our heads, and the best way to do that's for teachers to be able to demonstrate things simply and interestingly - but unfortunately, many don't have the time or the understanding to show slower learners.

Re: [split] Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 22 Feb 2015, 11:43
by Kellemora
Way back when I was playing music on weekends, I practiced for an hour a day.
One of the gals who worked for us often sat on my front porch at lunch to listen.
She was an excellent designer, and hoped to work in the office instead of on the floor.
Toward her goal, she took the same typing classes for three full sessions, and never could do more than hunt n peck.
Needless to say, I was surprised when she asked if I could teach her to play a tune on keyboard.
She didn't want to learn to read music, just learn to play one song she heard me play.
It took me awhile to figure out what song she was talking about, because I didn't recognize it.
Turns out, it was one of my practice etudes for limbering up my fingers more after I was warmed up.
She had an excellent memory and learned the first five notes on our first attempt.
Each day at lunch she came over and learned usually three or four more notes.
Within two weeks she learned the entire etude by heart, and could play it flawlessly every time, and without warming up first. Me, I would butcher it to death when I tried without warming up first.
She was happy as a lark having learned the tune she wanted to learn.
Over a month passed when she asked to play it, so she didn't forget. Once again, she ran through it perfectly. She amazed me.
After I gave her a compliment, she commented I made it easy, and she wished typing was so easy to learn.
Apparently they taught typing in school or at the trades classes she took much differently than I was taught when I was in school.
I got out my old Smith Corona portable, inked up the ribbon because it had dried out, and inserted a piece of paper. She looked at the letters on the keyboard and said the typewriters at class are all blank. I said ours were too, they don't need to be there because you don't type by looking at the keys.
But I can't remember where they all are that fast, she complained.
Don't need too, I don't know where they all are either, but my fingers do.
This threw her for a loop...
I said you can play the tune I taught you with no letters on the keys.
Yeah well that's different. How's it different? It just is, that's all.
I had her type only the word 'dad' over and over for about ten minutes, then changed to the word 'sad' for ten minutes and finally the word 'dash' for another ten minutes.
The next day I used words like 'lash, lag, hag, jag, gas, lass and glass.'
The next day she simply repeated all the words one after the other for half the lunch hour. She did not have a single mistake on the entire page.
It was then just a matter of adding words using the other rows of keys until her fingers automatically struck the right keys.
It did take two months before she could copy text flawlessly, then we worked on numbers for only a week. She finally passed the test to work in the office.
This made her more valuable to the company, because being an excellent designer, when we were short a team member, she could do double duty.

So you are correct, with some things it is how it is taught.

In my case, I could never draw, no matter how many years I tried.
That being said, I can now draw, but, it takes me over three hours to do a sketch which should take under a minute. I've never been able to build up my speed, not even by one second.


Re: [split] Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 22 Feb 2015, 15:16
by Ice.Maiden
Gary - how you showed that girl was an excellent way of doing things, but you see, you also had patience and gave her your time, which paid off. She also WANTED to learn that tune, and WANTED to learn to type. It certainly helps if you have that as a starter.

As for the drawing, I don't think there's a particular time limit to those sort of things. It's like writing a story. Some days it just comes to us, and then the next we may be struggling for inspiration. Some folk're slower at sketching than others, but it doesn't mean that your work's any the less impressive.

I like painting, and can do so fairly well, but if I'm sketching a still life picture before using water colours, it can take me quite a while before I'm satisfied with it. However - and this's weird - if I do a rough sketch using a yellow pencil or paint ..... I'm much faster, and the results're just as good!??

Re: [split] Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 23 Feb 2015, 12:35
by Kellemora
My dad spent a lot of money to hire John Gnagy to teach me sorta privately, a small class of four.
No matter what, I just couldn't get it. He was a great teacher and tried his best, working with me one on one for hours on end.
When it came time to sign up for the next semi-private session, he wouldn't take my dads money. Said I was hopeless, hi hi...

Skipping ahead thirty years, I ran across a paperback book, Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain.
I went through the book, doing each of the lessons until I had them down pat.
By the end of the book, I could do pencil sketches that almost emulated photographs, sorta.
I was pleased is what is important.

I had to make a trip to a neighboring state where I would be stuck just sitting with nothing to do for twelve hours. Using a pencil I sharpened with a pocket knife. I drew the scene I saw through the front window of my truck. It took me about eight hours of work to sketch the scene. I was so proud about how hit turned out, I showed it to someone. He held it up to compare with the scene and said I did great, but could use a little more shading in certain areas.

He flipped the page on my pad to show me, so as not to touch my work. In less than ten minutes he sketched the same scene, including the shading, using a small stub of pencil he carried.
Holding his drawing next to mine, made mine look like something a kindergartner would do.
I watched him closely as he made his sketch and picked up a couple of little tricks.
When I got home, I improved my drawing by studying the areas he emphasized, highlighted and shaded.
I will say what I drew matched the real scene, where what he drew, although matching, did not look like the real thing, it looked better, more like what you would expect to see, not what really was.
And this is where my greatest downfall lies. I can draw what is there, slowly, but not what is not there.


Re: [split] Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 23 Feb 2015, 13:29
by Ice.Maiden
I'm the same with computers - as if you didn't already know. : )

I forget abbreviations and expressions, so don't describe things well, and although I wouldn't want to be without my machine, I also hate them, if that makes sense. It's not as if I was a late starter. We did IT at school, and I couldn't stand it. Whether it's just part of my brain which doesn't function in that manner or not, I don't know. I'm sure I could learn more than I have, but I really don't want to! : )

Re: [split] Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 24 Feb 2015, 10:30
by Kellemora
When computers first came out, I took to them like a duck to water, and made them an integral part of my life. As primitive as they were, they cut many hours of tedious tasks I did by hand.
They were simple enough, using the minimal Basic programming language, I wrote the programs I needed to handle inventory, pricing, and handle a small part of my accounting chores, mainly doing repetitive calculations.

Even after Windows 3 and 3.11 came out, I was still doing most of my work in DOS, mainly because I was familiar with it, and it was faster.
But then as pre-built programs became available, I slowly began turning to them, for work, as I could not afford them for home use.

When the 286 machines came out, I made a huge expenditure to buy Cougar Mountain's complete business and accounting system. Trying to work on PCs actually added to my work load instead of alleviating some of it. Plus I had other things I did on computer which was harder on a PC, so I opted to buy the Lisa computer system and all the programs we needed. Ran like a top, no complaints, and we finished our work in record breaking time.

I decided to make the whole company computerized, something desktops could not do at the time, so went hog wild and bought a Wang VS Mainframe and all the sensors and controls needed for what I wanted to do. Wang programmers made sure everything did what I wanted it to and the way I wanted it to do it.
Expensive yes, but it saved us tons of money in the long run. Our bottom line went up!

I used all MACs in another business I was running, had several networked together using the TOPS network, but had too many personal clients who needed things provided in PC format. So I had to buy a few PCs to handle the work for them. Once again we were bogged down due to lack of functioning of PC programs compared to the same programs when run on a MAC.

Once again WANG came to my rescue and built a PC for me that ran WANG programs, but provided client output in PC formats. My seventh heaven was short lived, as technology made a few more leaps.

It was not until after we tried Windows 95 and Windows 98 finally came out that I made the transition from Wang to Windows. None of the tools we had in Wang were available in Windows, so for work, I sold the WANG VS Mainframe and replaced it with the much smaller WANG OIS system, plus several Windows 98 machines.

I had not written or even tried to write a program after Wang took over our programming, and the Windows system using their EXE format left me in the dust. Oh I tried, spent a fortune on the Micro$oft Macro Assembler package, and tried to learn to program for Windows. By the time I learned how to do one thing, the tables turned and it was already obsolete. Programming had become so complicated after that, I just bought what was available pre-made and learned to work at a major disadvantage.

It wasn't until Windows XP came out that we could recover all the lost time from switching to PCs.
Faster 386s and later 686s came out. Programmers improved and their programs were more powerful, also much more expensive. I couldn't afford many of them, so used smaller cheaper programs by the basket full to do something I expected the larger programs could do all in one program.

When I finally did bite the bullet and buy one of the very expensive programs, I found most of the features were sub-par to many of the free programs that came with the new printers. So after spending so much money on the fancy program, I still had to fall back on the low-end programs to do the work.

I played with Linux a few times, but was not a computer geek, nor did we have the things available we do today. Linux has come a long way over the years, but still well above my head at first. I always had an old machine I played with different Linux Distro's on, but they were useless until Ubuntu came out with a turn-key system for complete idiots like me. Their version 8.04 LTS is what converted me to go totally Linux. Shame they have gone downhill with each release after that time.

My brother is a major Windows Fan, his entire company was powered by Windows XP Pro and WAMP Servers. He probably had over 30 workstations, and everything was humming along with little to no problems. When Windows VISTA came out, he went whole hog and replaced the servers and all the workstations with new VISTA computers, the servers were still NT I think, but set up for Vista.

His business ground to a halt. He had to get rid of everything VISTA and go back to XP, an expense he could not truly afford. This was the beginning of the demise of his company. He lost thousands of accounts due to the lengthy downtime and other problems Vista caused him.

It has been a long downhill tumble ever since. He relocated a couple of times, downsizing each time, until now he is down from over 75 employees to only 2 not counting himself. Partly because his industry is declining also, but he always had other things going on that were on the upswing. His competitors who stayed with XP and ignored Vista continued to grow, and ended up with most of his clients.

Today, he is winding down the last of his businesses using a Window 7 laptop as his only source of business computing power. Which is also why I no longer have an out-state hard drive to back up my data too. If you ask him what was the major turning point causing the downfall of his business, he will tell you. During the hay day of the industry when everyone was growing in leaps and bounds, his switch to VISTA is the single largest mistake causing the greatest disaster in his business. It was an unrecoverable mistake!

Re: [split] Should bras be a no-no?

PostPosted: 24 Feb 2015, 12:19
by Ice.Maiden
Hi Gary. I've heard so many complaints about Vista, but never used it myself. I was happier using XP than I am with the Windows 7 I'm running on now, but I've sort of got used to it. I'm glad I didn't invest in the 8 or 8.1 though. I've heard complaints about those as well.