ampersand

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ampersand

Postby pilvikki » 21 Sep 2014, 03:33


that always threw me; why is it called that? :think:

well, in case anyone else is baffled, here you go:

http://blog.dictionary.com/ampersand/#comments
Last edited by pilvikki on 21 Sep 2014, 14:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ampersand

Postby Kellemora » 21 Sep 2014, 13:21

I'm so OLDE, I still pronounce Ye as The!
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Re: ampersand

Postby pilvikki » 21 Sep 2014, 14:16


"hear ye, hear ye"? :lol:
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Re: ampersand

Postby Ice.Maiden » 21 Sep 2014, 14:26

It's Latin for "and", or something. Saves you writing out three letters when one symbol'll do. : )
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Re: ampersand

Postby pilvikki » 21 Sep 2014, 14:39


well, yes, it stands for "et", but until now I never knew why it was called ampersand.
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Re: ampersand

Postby Ice.Maiden » 21 Sep 2014, 15:13

I knew about it, but'd forgotten until you posted the link.
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Re: ampersand

Postby Yogi » 22 Sep 2014, 09:27

The amazing part is that ampersand was part of the standard alphabet for a long time.
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Re: ampersand

Postby Kellemora » 22 Sep 2014, 09:55

So were the "thorn" and "wynn" Yogi...

Y was called thorn because it was pronounce with the th sound.
So the word Ye, was pronounced like we pronounce the word The.

Thus a name like Ye Olde Steak House (a local restaurant) would properly be read as The Old Steak House.

Which brings us to Pil's Hear Ye, Hear Ye.
It has two meanings, the oldest meaning is Hear Thee, Hear Thee, still using the thorn sound.
But in more modern Shakespearean phrase, after the thorn was dropped from the alphabet and Ye is the same as saying a Y with a wye sound rather than th sound, so Ye is like saying Thee with a wye sound and became Hear Ye.

I remember back in grade school, we had one teacher who always pronounced The as (thuh) and another always as (thee).
They did not change their pronunciation based on the whether the next sound was a vowel or a consonant sound.
One of the teachers actually taught that there is neither a thuh or thee sound for the. It's a sound that falls between the two they are using, more like a generic the that fits all cases. She was not our English teacher, hi hi...
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Re: ampersand

Postby Ice.Maiden » 22 Sep 2014, 11:05

We still use the "thee" for "the" if the following word starts with a vowel - i.e. the (thee) elephant; the (thee) ant; the (thee) octopus, etc. It sounds pretty strange to say "the" (thuh) before any of those words, so we use this pronunciation as standard.
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Re: ampersand

Postby pilvikki » 22 Sep 2014, 11:27


:cool2:

I've never heard that pronunciation for gary's ye.
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Re: ampersand

Postby Ice.Maiden » 22 Sep 2014, 11:41

I'm not sure that I understand exactly what he means, either. :shock:

Gary - can you use some sentences with examples please?
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Re: ampersand

Postby Kellemora » 23 Sep 2014, 11:08

Hi Icey

Not sure which of my comments you are referring to.

If you mean "Ye" here is a link to a very short article.

http://blog.dictionary.com/letters-alphabet/

"That is why the word “ye,” as in “Ye Olde Booke Shoppe,” is an archaic spelling of “the.”

If you mean "Hear Ye Hear Ye" I could be here all day explaining the different times and usages and meanings.

In Legalese it means "Hear This You People."
Archaic (using thorn) it means "Hear Thee Me."
Post Archaic (when Ye meant YOU) it gets convoluted with double meanings. "Hear You" and "Hear You Me." Totally opposite meanings. Such as Yes I hear you, if used once; and Listen up for an announcement, if used twice in succession.

The confusion comes when the period of reference is not given.
Is the time period when Ye had the (th) sound and meant THE?
Or is it from the time period when Ye meant YOU?
Or is it from modern times when the two words represent an abbreviated form of four words, as in legalese. Hear Ye is an abbreviated archaic sentence once using thorn, now dropped to and using You. Which actually means Hear (thee) You (people), or in legalese Hear (this) You (people).
The most common usage today means Hear Thee, not Hear You, which makes no sense in modern English. So the old use of the (thorn) is still alive and well today. Hear ye Hear ye, is the same as Hear thee Hear thee.

I don't think I'll get into Hear Hear and Here Here, hi hi...

TTUL
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Re: ampersand

Postby Ice.Maiden » 24 Sep 2014, 13:22

Hi Gary.

Its this bit that causes confusion: *Is the time period when Ye had the (th) sound and meant THE?
Or is it from the time period when Ye meant YOU?

Both ye's, meaning "the" or "you", have the same sound over here - as in yee, to rhyme with tree. There IS another version though, called out by town criers. These were people who rang bells and shouted "Oh ye, oh ye" to announce some news. The tradition still holds under certain situations. This particular "ye's" pronounced as "yay".

I've never come across a "ye" word pronounced as "th".
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Re: ampersand

Postby Kellemora » 26 Sep 2014, 10:20

Hi Icey
We get both over here.
Without looking it up, the town criers call was Ozye or Omye. You can find out which if you do a little research.
Probably sounded like OhYe or EhYe. So as English modernized it became Hear Ye.
Then somebody invented a clock and the town crier was out of a job.

TTUL
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Re: ampersand

Postby Ice.Maiden » 26 Sep 2014, 13:13

Hello Gary.

Yes, it's written over here as oyez, and pronounced as "Oh yay" - which does, of course, mean "Hear ye".

We still have town criers during festivals and during ancient rituals where (usually good) news's imparted to crowds. Sometimes the tradition's used at the start of ceremonies before outdoor games and competitions as a bit of fun.

Town crier Tony Appleton also announced the birth of Prince George when he arrived. I think it's quaint!
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Re: ampersand

Postby Kellemora » 27 Sep 2014, 11:21

Sorry I didn't remember the proper word, but you figured out what I meant.

When I was setting cold type from California Cases, we had most of the linked together letters in our older cases, although we rarely used them. Glad I didn't have to do that for a living, hi hi... LOVE computers!
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Re: ampersand

Postby Ice.Maiden » 27 Sep 2014, 17:22

No problem Gary.
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