Welfare System Broken [split]

Brainformation is about the information in your brain and the way it's perceived. This forum specialize in the exchange of ideas and thoughts that do not fit into our special interests categories.

Welfare System Broken [split]

Postby LilAni » 07 Sep 2014, 03:39

If only I could like a post. I've been arguing about the welfare system for so long. I know a lady that had $1200 in foodstamps, free housing, the church paid her electric, she didn't work, and her partner did work bringing in roughly $ 1000 a month! She was my next door neighbor while I was scraping by at my minimum wage job, eating Ramen noodles and praying I made enough for rent and electric since I didn't qualify for assistance. It's a stupid system and those that truly need it, don't qualify. We should just do away with it I say. Or make them have to have a job, any job. Plus drug testing! If I have to be drug free to earn my check and pay my taxes, you should be drug free to get the check my taxes fund. Rant over...*steps off soapbox*
LilAni
Learning Class Poster
Learning Class Poster
 
Posts: 11
Joined: 05 Sep 2014, 16:02

Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Kellemora » 07 Sep 2014, 10:41

Can I join you on your soapbox LilAni?

Won't go into my life history here. Suffice it to say, after my wife's insurance capped out, and I sold my businesses, having nothing left except my own house which was mortgaged to pay her medical bills, and for more than my house was worth. I still could NOT get any type of assistance, because an Asset, my house, was listed in my name. I didn't really own the house, the bank did, but that didn't matter.
No help if you own anything...

I too had a neighbor, four doors down from me. They rented their house, so didn't own it. I had an 8 year old car, they had two brand new, current year cars. Hud came in and paid for half of their rent, they got welfare, food stamps AND free medical services for the entire family. Her daughter brought in close to 15k dollars a year in income, which she added more than half of to the household budget. You wouldn't believe all the free stuff they got besides the initial government doles.

The only difference between me and my wife, and them, a husband and wife with a daughter, and a mother staying with them, was: I was WHITE and they were BLACK! So they got everything handed to them on a Silver Platter for over a decade, and we could not even get short term assistance for only a couple of years with my wife's medical bills. Which is all I asked for help with. I didn't qualify, because of my over mortgaged house, and being the Wrong Color...
User avatar
Kellemora
Brainiac Class Poster
Brainiac Class Poster
 
Posts: 3389
Joined: 07 Jul 2012, 18:52
Location: From St. Louis, current Knoxville, TN

Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Ice.Maiden » 07 Sep 2014, 17:26

I agree that there're flaws in the benefits systems, but in the UK it doesn't work like yours.

If a couple're renting, OR paying a mortgage, if the family income falls under a certain amount - for example if one or both fall out of work - they can claim top-ups to the set amounts. Their Council Tax could also be reduced or made so that they get the full benefit and they don't have to pay a penny. However, our system pays out nowhere near what yours appears to do, and from what they can claim, they still have to find the money for their utility bills and everything else.

If unemployed people're found to be "working on the side" (cash in hand), any benefits they're in receipt of're stopped, and it all has to be paid back. It's a big offence over here, and more people than ever're ending up in court. One of the reasons, is that folk're "encouraged" to report their neighbours, and after being watched for a certain length of time, they're hauled in to face the evidence. These officers work in the Fraud Squad of the benefits department, and'll sit outside someone's house for several days, making notes of when the occupants under surveillance leave their homes and come back. They're also followed to see whether they're going into work somewhere. They're used to all the usual excuses (that they weren't receiving any payment, blah blah) and investigate this further.

No one over here can be seen to discriminate. A person of ethnic origin's just as likely to be pulled up as the next person. However, there's been a lot of unrest in the UK because of the amount of immigrants flocking in. They used to get priority housing, or be put up in hotels, but the tide's now turning. A legal immigrant'll soon have to be here for 6 months before they can claim benefits, and then reviews're undertaken once they're granted. Having said that, many disappear into the black market - I suppose they have to live somehow.

To go back to claiming benefits, if a person rents their home from a local authority, the entire family income's taken into account when working out suitability for Housing Benefit. If a couple have 2 children who're working, their wages're taken into account, and if it's over the amount outlined, they continue to pay the full rent stipulated.

Where you see non-working families who appear to have all the latest gadgets and're able to run cars, obviously they'll come under scrutiny, because our benefits aren't high enough to allow for this, so either they're getting their money/goods illegally, or being helped by relatives/friends - in which case the officers on the case request a breakdown of incomings and outgoings and want to know where every penny's coming from.

Very poor people who manage to get a roof over their heads're sometimes given vouchers which allow them to get second-hand furniture from various charitable agencies, but again, these're very basic items, such as a cooker and a bed. Unless they're disabled, they're then expected to seek work or go on courses. If they don't actively do this, their money's stopped for so many weeks. A repeat of it means that their money gets stopped for longer next time - which just encourages thieving, begging or finding a menial job which pays in the hand, and since employers're supposed to give in the National Insurance numbers of all their employees, they often play by the book for fear of getting into trouble themselves.

I don't agree that all welfare payments should be stopped, particularly if someone's worked in the past. There're people who CAN'T work, due to illness or incapacity. These're the ones who should be helped. An able-bodied person might be given so long to find a job, if, for instance, they're made redundant, and in which case I think they're entitled to claim benefits because they've paid into the system, but as you both demonstrate, there're some who play the system and have no inclination to find a job at all. I don't think you'll ever eradicate this totally, but over here, we still have austerity measures in place, and the benefits that used to be freely available're now being cut or not available at all.
User avatar
Ice.Maiden
Golden Poster
Golden Poster
 
Posts: 70045
Joined: 14 Aug 2009, 23:31
Location: Peak District

Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Kellemora » 08 Sep 2014, 09:14

Sounds like yours is under much better control than ours.

Our welfare system is more like a barter system to get votes for the liberal candidates.

It is also abused so much, those who REALLY NEED HELP cannot get it, because they are busy doling out money to those who could work but refuse to because they make more by not working.

I'm stopping here before I write another epic length thesis, hi hi...

TTUL
Gary
User avatar
Kellemora
Brainiac Class Poster
Brainiac Class Poster
 
Posts: 3389
Joined: 07 Jul 2012, 18:52
Location: From St. Louis, current Knoxville, TN

Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Ice.Maiden » 08 Sep 2014, 14:23

No problem Gary, because I hear what you're saying.

Our system's been tightened up over the past few years. I know how it is from people employed here on a part-time or seasonal basis, but those on the dole, or Jobseekers Allowance as it's now called, have to produce regular evidence that they're actively seeking work, or their money can be stopped. This evidence consists of producing TEN job applications each time they go to "sign on", which's ridiculous, since many people, especially youngsters, aren't capable of going after one, let alone any more. They don't have the skills or qualifications, so apply for any sort of work, knowing that they won't even get a letter back, let alone an interview - but if they can prove they've tried, it's accepted.
User avatar
Ice.Maiden
Golden Poster
Golden Poster
 
Posts: 70045
Joined: 14 Aug 2009, 23:31
Location: Peak District

Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby LilAni » 08 Sep 2014, 15:38

Yea, our system in Texas has a set up where you get 5 signatures a month saying you 'applied' but most times these people come into a job and ask 'are you hiring?' Then can you sign my paper saying I asked. Pshh if you want a job, you will find a job. There are areas where jobs are scarce, but not in my area. We are shorthanded at nearly all the fast food places and convenient stores. Why? Cause no one wants to work for less money than they can get from the government. I never qualified because I owned my own car. But actually it was my mom's car, my name is on it so I don't qualify, plus my husband pats child support but they count it like we receive it instead of taking into account that's $500 a month less we have. Our system is so bad I see people using foodstamps for snacks for their litter of children who look like they have never had a bath then pull out cash for that case of beer...heck just $50 in foodstamps a month would've helped my family. I honestly don't know what people do with $1200 in foodstamps...maybe sell them. And in my area it seems like the Hispanics are the ones mostly on welfare. I don't see it as a racial thing in my area. My neighbor was more white than myself, she just knew how to cheat the system. If you can't afford to feed yourself, please stop having babies. I knew a woman that had 8 kids. Finally after the 8th one was 6 months old, she told her family she was taking them to the orphanage. So her family split the kids up and they stayed in the family. But I have to wonder what that woman was thinking. She was 25 and had 8 children then decided she wanted a life. I'm sorry, next time learn to close your legs or use a condom. She just wanted the tax bonus for having a baby. Stupid. The system is not working. Break it down and start over and do away with it is what I say. Cause those that really need it can't even get it, they make do, so the only ones it will hurt are the ones that need to get off their lazy butts, get a job, and stop reproducing. Lol ok...done with my rant now.
LilAni
Learning Class Poster
Learning Class Poster
 
Posts: 11
Joined: 05 Sep 2014, 16:02

Re: Human Obsolescence

Postby Ice.Maiden » 08 Sep 2014, 17:14

I agree with you about the reproducing. Over here, as with most other societies which hand out state benefits, you get a few who'll have child after child just to get the Child benefit which they're entitled to. This often doesn't get spent on the children, but goes on alcohol and cigarettes. The poor kids're not starved, but look unkempt and sometimes aren't cared for properly. You'll see a teenage girl with 3 or 4 youngsters. The mother's walking around glued to her mobile phone, and she'll just yell at the kids if they interrupt her. Meanwhile, they're left to race round the aisles, picking things off shelves and generally misbehaving. There ARE exceptions of course, but in the main, these kids don't stand a chance.
User avatar
Ice.Maiden
Golden Poster
Golden Poster
 
Posts: 70045
Joined: 14 Aug 2009, 23:31
Location: Peak District

Re: Welfare System Broken [split]

Postby Yogi » 09 Sep 2014, 11:03

NOTE
This topic was extracted from a thread that went off topic too far but was good enough to keep in the discussion forums. Please feel free to continue Welfare System Broken discussions here.
User avatar
Yogi
Oracle Class Poster
Oracle Class Poster
 
Posts: 7013
Joined: 04 Aug 2007, 19:37
Location: Chicagoland

Re: Welfare System Broken [split]

Postby Kellemora » 09 Sep 2014, 11:32

Unless someone is disabled and cannot work, then personally I think any able bodied worker should be put to work to get a welfare check.
Only a few years ago, one of our city poly-TICK-ians, I think an alderman, published a list of over 1,300 jobs that could be assigned to the unemployed to earn above minimum wage, or to qualify for a welfare check.
The city is already paying for most of these jobs to be done, a few through 3rd party companies under contracts. Even so, none of the jobs listed were Union controlled jobs, so they were open to everyone.
Some of the jobs listed required a skill, but most only being shown what to do.
The most interesting thing about the list itself was, more than one-third of them could produce an income for the city greater than the salaries already paid for doing the jobs. In other words, the workers would earn more than their current welfare payments and alleviate the city of the salaries they are paying already to get the jobs done. It would not put the current workers out of a job, just get more of the same work done that is normally left undone.

The big thing is, it would reduce the number of crimes committed in the area, because those committing the crimes would be busy at work instead of looking for someplace to cause trouble. It also may give them a step-up to finding a better job, once they get used to working instead of sitting on a couch watching TV all day, and roaming the streets all night looking for a place or someone to rob.

TTUL
Gary
User avatar
Kellemora
Brainiac Class Poster
Brainiac Class Poster
 
Posts: 3389
Joined: 07 Jul 2012, 18:52
Location: From St. Louis, current Knoxville, TN

Re: Welfare System Broken [split]

Postby Ice.Maiden » 09 Sep 2014, 14:50

Yes, I can understand what you're saying.

Here, it's a bit different. There ARE some jobs, but many're just part-time or pay the minimum wage. If you take into account that folk might have to travel quite a distance, by the time costly public transport's been taken into consideration (no one on straight dole money can afford to buy a car, let alone run one), people're worse off applying for those jobs than staying on benefits. Also, above a certain amount, they become liable to pay towards rent and Council Tax, which can take them back to square one.

A young girl I know, who has 3 children, was sent on a course. It was across town from where she lived, and when she complained that she had to be back to pick her kids up from school, they said she either went, or lost her benefit money. So, struggling to find someone who'd look after her children and pick them up from school for nothing, she grudgingly went on the course. At the end of it, the paperwork she received wasn't worth a light, but worse, the eldest child had to leave school early one day through contracting a diarrhoea and sickness bug. The school found the person who was caring for her during her mother's absence, but the following day, the girl worsened and the mother had to take the girl to the doctors. When she phoned the place where she was doing the course, they had no sympathy, and bluntly told her that if she took time off, they'd mark her down as simply not turning up, even though her reasons were genuine. Angry at the poor treatment, the mother put her child before the course, and lost her money for a while because she took a week off to care for her. She had to borrow food money from friends, and then couldn't afford to pay it back, but her friends said they didn't want anything because of her circumstances.

This was cruel and harsh. I say nothing to making scroungers work for their money, or for them to learn a new trade etc., but the jobs on offer aren't local, and these courses were just set up to make the government unemployment figures look better.

To be frank, you might've heard that our economy's improving, but as was stated in one of the papers recently, in reality, there're still far too many people out of work and no jobs for them all to go to.
User avatar
Ice.Maiden
Golden Poster
Golden Poster
 
Posts: 70045
Joined: 14 Aug 2009, 23:31
Location: Peak District

Re: Welfare System Broken [split]

Postby pilvikki » 10 Sep 2014, 11:13


I read a beaute in a Swedish paper, where a woman was told she'd be cut off benefits unless she'd sign up for a course. never mind she was mentally handicapped and would not have found her way there.

a nurse was injured at work, told it was time to return to work. but how's a nurse supposed to look after her patients while hobbling on crutches.

the people they hire for these jobs!
User avatar
pilvikki
Royal Poobah Penguin
Royal Poobah Penguin
 
Posts: 40729
Joined: 07 Aug 2007, 23:32
Location: france

Re: Welfare System Broken [split]

Postby Kellemora » 10 Sep 2014, 14:01

Dealing with government employees and offices, no matter where you live, is always a nightmare.

We had a girl who was blind from birth, who had to pay for an annual exam to maintain her blind status.
The total cost of all her exams from when they required she start taking them, up to that year she showed us her list of receipts in a book, was just shy of five thousand dollars in unrefundable money she had to spend, for no logical reason.
Being blind she could not travel alone, and either had to hire a transport ambulance or hire a nurse to go with her. She chose a friend and a cab instead because it was much cheaper.
She kept track of her cab fares to and from the examiners office, to and from the claims office, counting only herself as the passenger in her notes, but did show the actual cab fare and customary tip.

The claims office never told her she could avoid the trips and annual inspection if she hired an attorney to get a permanent certification. When she did learn of this method, the cost was beyond her means, until some folks took up a collection to help her pay for it. It was something one could not do on their own, but I don't remember why.

I did learn of one trick which could get my social security up a little higher, but I don't have the kind of money it would take to do it. Nor do I think I will live long enough to make it worth doing if I did.
If I did it right now, I would have to come up with 36,000 dollars, to get a 114 dollar a month increase in my social security payments. To break even, I would have to live 27 more years, and I know I'm not going to make it to 93 years old.
User avatar
Kellemora
Brainiac Class Poster
Brainiac Class Poster
 
Posts: 3389
Joined: 07 Jul 2012, 18:52
Location: From St. Louis, current Knoxville, TN

Re: Welfare System Broken [split]

Postby Ice.Maiden » 10 Sep 2014, 16:25

To add to Vikki's examples: A TV documentary showed a "live as it happened" film on how disabled people can be assessed by firms which the government employs to make these decisions, never mind that the claimants have doctor and hospital paperwork to prove what's wrong with them.

A woman with one arm was wheeled in before the young officer in attendance. After asking a few questions, the officer said: "Do you expect your arm to grow back again?"

The disabled woman was in total shock. How and why DO they employ these idiots?

To Gary - without "pulling a fast one", it's impossible to receive higher social security benefits over here than's designated for each case. Couples get a flat payment, single people get another, and then there are others which you can claim for, e.g. PIP (Personal Independence Payment for those with disabilities). However, there're an array of different claim packages which can be confusing, and the Benefits Office don't always tell you what you're entitled to. This's dependent upon how many children you have, the age of the claimant and so forth.

If a person finds that they can legally claim for increments, it doesn't cost anything to apply, but it can takes weeks for a decision to be made. Back payments can then be made in some cases, but these only go back to between 1-3 months, depending on the benefit applied for, so a person can lose out on thousands of pounds over a period of time.
User avatar
Ice.Maiden
Golden Poster
Golden Poster
 
Posts: 70045
Joined: 14 Aug 2009, 23:31
Location: Peak District

Re: Welfare System Broken [split]

Postby Kellemora » 11 Sep 2014, 11:35

Hi Icey

Social Security is NOT Welfare. It is like an insurance policy we BUY with our own money, all the years we are working. Each and every paycheck has our FICA (Social Security) deducted from what we earned. This money goes into an interest bearing account and is used to pay those of us who reached retirement age.

When Social Security first started, naturally it was paying out to those already retired who did not pay into it.
The income into SS was sufficient to cover this, and they knew from the calculations SS would break even around 1976, meaning no one would be paid that did not pay into it.
They did much better than expected, SS reached the break even point in 1972.
So ever since 1972, all the funds being poured into SS by the baby boomer generation, was much higher than they would ever pay back to us, due to those who died before they could collect. Which was calculated in also. A couple of wars with heavy casualties only made for a healthier pot held by SS.

Sadly, our government TOOK the funds held by Social Security to use for themselves. The first time they did this it was a loan with interest. However, after many demands and they paid it back, they did so without interest or very low interest. This HURT Social Security, but it was still more than solvent and could never pay out more than it took in, even if everyone quit working.
Nevertheless, the Greedy Government once again ATTACKED the FUNDS belonging to We The People, and used it again, this time with no agreement to pay it back. They decided to take over paying SS as it came due to those who paid into it.
Our government is basically broke, the only way they can put our SS money back is to tax everyone to death, cut SS benefits, which is illegal but that has never stopped our government.

All I'm saying here is, all the THREATS to those of us who PAID OUR MONEY into the SS retirement plan, is nothing more than GRAND THEFT from us. We Paid Into It, and cannot possibly get back more than we paid into it. Now they want to CUT IT, saying NO FUNDS, which is one of the biggest LIES our government has ever tried pulling on the people.

We constantly hear that SS is BROKE, which is a LIE. We never hear about WELFARE being BROKE! NO ONE has EVER paid INTO Welfare. It comes out of our taxes.

Now that I'm done with that dissertation.
When the SS system first started, everyone received a fixed amount, adjusted for inflation, depending on what their age was when SS started and also at which age they retired thereafter.
Then they changed the system. The amount we get from SS each month is determined by how much money we have put into the system, and at which age we retire, and it is supposed to be adjusted based on inflation.
However, since the government STOLE all of the Funds to pay us, they now pull things like saying we had no inflation this year, so we don't get an increase, but they turn around and increase how much of our SS they take to cover costs they added to our SS we must pay from it, because of inflation.

In other words, on the amount they pay us, they say there was no inflation, so no increase.
But on the amount they take out, they increase it, claiming inflation, so we pay out more.
How can they claim higher overall costs without inflation? It's Impossible, but our crooked government gets by with it. We get a little less of our own money back each year.

TTUL
Gary
User avatar
Kellemora
Brainiac Class Poster
Brainiac Class Poster
 
Posts: 3389
Joined: 07 Jul 2012, 18:52
Location: From St. Louis, current Knoxville, TN

Re: Welfare System Broken [split]

Postby Ice.Maiden » 11 Sep 2014, 16:01

Hi Gary.

I think it's the same in most places where benefits're handed out.

Each year, UK citizens who're able to claim benefits get a small increment. It's not in line with inflation, but folk're grateful for even the slightest rises, because pittance or not, it goes towards paying a fraction of our cost-of-living charges. This doesn't stop the jibes about it though! : )

Social Security and other benefit payments come out of the taxes which working people pay, but so do plenty of other things. We pay for defence, our police, libraries, street lighting - everything - and this wouldn't be so bad except that this, and previous governments've wasted billions of tax payer's money on "think tanks" and other ridiculous and useless ventures. They obviously invested badly, and gave too much away, and now that the coffers're low, they're taking from poor old Joe Public yet again. The unfairness's that those in power've just awarded themselves nice hefty pay rises - far more than the average man earns in total a year. If they refused to take these rises, maybe some of the money could be poured back to reduce the National deficit, but no, of course not.

It's a case of take, take, take from the masses, without us getting anything in return, and then any money which builds up just goes to pay off debts that the masses never created in the first place. Most people here consider that the country's run by a bunch of "intelligent" morons. The man in the street could probably do better by simplifying matters.
User avatar
Ice.Maiden
Golden Poster
Golden Poster
 
Posts: 70045
Joined: 14 Aug 2009, 23:31
Location: Peak District

Re: Welfare System Broken [split]

Postby Kellemora » 12 Sep 2014, 11:48

No matter how they were on the outside, once they get on the inside, they all become corrupt.
User avatar
Kellemora
Brainiac Class Poster
Brainiac Class Poster
 
Posts: 3389
Joined: 07 Jul 2012, 18:52
Location: From St. Louis, current Knoxville, TN

Re: Welfare System Broken [split]

Postby Ice.Maiden » 12 Sep 2014, 14:50

I'd say that a good majority do, but that's what position and power does to people. They're not thinking about the general population - but looking out for themselves.
User avatar
Ice.Maiden
Golden Poster
Golden Poster
 
Posts: 70045
Joined: 14 Aug 2009, 23:31
Location: Peak District


Return to Brain Information

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 15 guests

cron